96 Civic 2200mi Supertech Full Syn 5w30

[Bellavita]

I looked it up because stuff like that is on the internet. Normal: 7500 miles or 12 months. Severe: 3750 miles or 6 months.

That said, it goes without saying that today's oils are much better than they were in '96 and can be pushed much further. I think today's baseline is 5000 miles unless you have a severe fuel diluting vehicle.

Thanks for looking it up. I wanted to understand your OCI . . . looks like you're using the severe.

 

[Bellavita]

Only 4 ppm of iron against a universal average of 10 is impressive. . . especially for a 27 year old engine! Well done!

 

[OVERKILL]

Only 4 ppm of iron against a universal average of 10 is impressive. . . especially for a 27 year old engine! Well done!

Not really, 4ppm per 2,200 miles is 1.82ppm/1,000 miles. If the universal average is based on say a 5,000 mile interval, that's 2ppm/1,000 miles, meaning that the results are essentially identical, particularly given the error bars.

 

[Bellavita]

It would be interesting to know what those miles are associated with the universal averages. A good column add for Blackstone.

 

[Furious]

Quakerstate Full Synthetic is a good choice.

But this seems really odd, Supertech is actually good oil so maybe you did use 5w20 by mistake or possibly there was a labeling issue at the factory.

 

[Furious]

Do you know where your Super T came from? Warren?? or unknown?

All Supertech oil is Highline Warren.

 

[OVERKILL]

It would be interesting to know what those miles are associated with the universal averages. A good column add for Blackstone.

Agreed, in fact, they could just reduce the size of the "Universal Averages" heading and put the mileage in the standard mileage location to match the rest of the report.

 

[researcher]

Something this old is simply marked “mileage exempt” on the title and nobody cares about it. We see it all the time at our shop.

yes, Michigan doesn't care since the Civic is older, I think it's 10 or 15 years by Michigan's standards.

 

[researcher]

Yea but you can still see the health of the oil just fine by only looking at flashpoint. Idk why the crazy desire to see fuel in a percentage. we have yet to see anything over 4-5% where engine wear was also elevated at the same time. It’s always the same 2-3% fuel. And…? Obviously it’s not enough to cause the oil to fail it’s Job.

I looked it up because stuff like that is on the internet. Normal: 7500 miles or 12 months. Severe: 3750 miles or 6 months.

That said, it goes without saying that today's oils are much better than they were in '96 and can be pushed much further. I think today's baseline is 5000 miles unless you have a severe fuel diluting vehicle.

Only 4 ppm of iron against a universal average of 10 is impressive. . . especially for a 27 year old engine! Well done!

You can't discern that from a UOA, you know that, we've discussed this before. I've also shared several papers on the negative effects of fuel dilution and this was also covered at the @High Performance Lubricants open house (which I believe @RDY4WAR has shared the comments from previously) with regards to reducing the effectiveness of additives.

I appreciate your skepticism, but this is a subject that's been well researched and there is plenty of data available. To claim that because you haven't seen sufficient evidence via $20 UOA's that this somehow negates that body of proof is, quite frankly, silly, and I tend to be kinder on the framing of this stuff than @kschachn.

On the topic of fuel dilution, given that this is a 1996 vehicle with port injection and not DI, and this appeared to start happening in 2019, I'd suspect he has a sticking or leaking injector.

Also not sure why you would dismiss wanting to have an accurate representation of fuel as a "crazy desire". Blackstone constantly misrepresents the volume of fuel in the oil, we see this regularly, because they also include a percentage along with the flashpoint. That has led to people concluding, regularly, over the years, that they have experienced shear, when in reality, it is fuel dilution, or primarily fuel dilution.

Quakerstate Full Synthetic is a good choice.

But this seems really odd, Supertech is actually good oil so maybe you did use 5w20 by mistake or possibly there was a labeling issue at the factory.

First I want to thank everyone for their opinion, it's very helpful! With what has been said I'm going to check the injectors via the computer and see what the LTFT and STFT are for the injectors, long-term and short term fuel trims. I did check them a couple months ago (during the current lab results) and they were maybe 1%! But I know things can change.

With what @OVERKILL, you said about the fuel dilution, yes it cannot be denied. Over many oils this oil thins out because of that, I believe that. If it gets over 4 months in the engine then it starts to thin out, no matter what viscosity is used. The big question is, what is "normal"? I know nothing is perfect and I agree with @Artem if I have even 1-2 or 2-3% dilution and the injectors check out normal then I can't be freaking out over it, since the oil DID protect the engine from wear. I'm one who would love to be perfect but on a 27 year old engine, how perfect can it be? And maybe it's just the way it is. I did look up other Civic's from my era here on BITOG and they were all doing the same thing!

@himemsys you're correct, I kept thinking it was 3 months but it's 6 months or 3750miles is what the severe schedule is. One time in 2020 (we all know why) I ended going a year before I changed the oil, that was the old Magnatec recipe and it did great.. We all know how good the old Magnatec recipe was! But I'll have to find something else now. I also appreciate your comments on the possibility of 5w20.

To update everyone speaking of 5w20.. I had the lab re-test the viscosity and yup they were off.. it is 8.86 cSt!! Not 8.14.. now it did thin out but not as much as previously thought. So that means the flashpoint isn't as low as they said. To @OVERKILL I agree with a different lab and have looked up Amsoil's Oil Analyzers which uses Polaris. They do gas chromatography and if I'm going to get into the details about fuel dilution, I better have the facts! Great point! So that's the next stop, next time.

@Bellavita thanks for the words of encouragement! I know it might be "Average" but you're right, trying to be perfect and yes not even thankful for the results I have! I've been trying to take care of this car, it's a project of restoration and you're right, the results are not bad!

@Furious thanks for the QS suggestion, I'll look into it. And doesn't look like Supertech mis-labelled anything.. the lab redid the testing and the viscosity is much closer to 5w30 at 8.86. It might be a good oil but for this Civic engine it doesn't look like it resisted the fuel dilution..

Also.. looking back at the results over time There was fuel dilution even after I replaced the injectors (new) in 2017! I know that Honda had recalled this computer (ecu) over emissions law violations the EPA caught them doing. The ECU was actually programmed by Honda NOT to throw a check engine light to make themselves look great. EPA caught them and forced them to obey the law. The result? A new ecu was produced. Now why this car never got it is beyond me.. But I have a new, old stock ECU that I will be installing.. (don't worry the capacitors will be replaced because age is a factor) Because if the ecu is bad, how can I believe anything it reports via the OBD2 scanner? And the ecu controls the injectors.. if it is showing fuel dilution even after the new injectors are installed then doesn't hurt to think the ecu isn't doing something right.

Just a theory.. It'll be interesting to see the STFT and LTFT with the old and new ecu..

 

[OVERKILL]

First I want to thank everyone for their opinion, it's very helpful! With what has been said I'm going to check the injectors via the computer and see what the LTFT and STFT are for the injectors, long-term and short term fuel trims. I did check them a couple months ago (during the current lab results) and they were maybe 1%! But I know things can change.

With what @OVERKILL, you said about the fuel dilution, yes it cannot be denied. Over many oils this oil thins out because of that, I believe that. If it gets over 4 months in the engine then it starts to thin out, no matter what viscosity is used. The big question is, what is "normal"? I know nothing is perfect and I agree with @Artem if I have even 1-2 or 2-3% dilution and the injectors check out normal then I can't be freaking out over it, since the oil DID protect the engine from wear. I'm one who would love to be perfect but on a 27 year old engine, how perfect can it be? And maybe it's just the way it is. I did look up other Civic's from my era here on BITOG and they were all doing the same thing!

@himemsys you're correct, I kept thinking it was 3 months but it's 6 months or 3750miles is what the severe schedule is. One time in 2020 (we all know why) I ended going a year before I changed the oil, that was the old Magnatec recipe and it did great.. We all know how good the old Magnatec recipe was! But I'll have to find something else now. I also appreciate your comments on the possibility of 5w20.

To update everyone speaking of 5w20.. I had the lab re-test the viscosity and yup they were off.. it is 8.86 cSt!! Not 8.14.. now it did thin out but not as much as previously thought. So that means the flashpoint isn't as low as they said. To @OVERKILL I agree with a different lab and have looked up Amsoil's Oil Analyzers which uses Polaris. They do gas chromatography and if I'm going to get into the details about fuel dilution, I better have the facts! Great point! So that's the next stop, next time.

@Bellavita thanks for the words of encouragement! I know it might be "Average" but you're right, trying to be perfect and yes not even thankful for the results I have! I've been trying to take care of this car, it's a project of restoration and you're right, the results are not bad!

@Furious thanks for the QS suggestion, I'll look into it. And doesn't look like Supertech mis-labelled anything.. the lab redid the testing and the viscosity is much closer to 5w30 at 8.86. It might be a good oil but for this Civic engine it doesn't look like it resisted the fuel dilution..

Also.. looking back at the results over time There was fuel dilution even after I replaced the injectors (new) in 2017! I know that Honda had recalled this computer (ecu) over emissions law violations the EPA caught them doing. The ECU was actually programmed by Honda NOT to throw a check engine light to make themselves look great. EPA caught them and forced them to obey the law. The result? A new ecu was produced. Now why this car never got it is beyond me.. But I have a new, old stock ECU that I will be installing.. (don't worry the capacitors will be replaced because age is a factor) Because if the ecu is bad, how can I believe anything it reports via the OBD2 scanner? And the ecu controls the injectors.. if it is showing fuel dilution even after the new injectors are installed then doesn't hurt to think the ecu isn't doing something right.

Just a theory.. It'll be interesting to see the STFT and LTFT with the old and new ecu..

When you replaced the injectors, were they new OE, refurb'd or aftermarket? @Trav on here does injector rebuilds so his input may be warranted depending on the answer to that question.

 

[Furious]

thanks for the QS suggestion, I'll look into it. And doesn't look like Supertech mis-labelled anything.. the lab redid the testing and the viscosity is much closer to 5w30 at 8.86. It might be a good oil but for this Civic engine it doesn't look like it resisted the fuel dilution..

That is odd, I wonder what kind of quality control they have for their testing at Blackstone. Did they charge you for the retest?.

 

[c502cid]

I'm not making any judgement on the OP, just looking a this differently. I've had my share of 96-00 Civics. One thing I love about them, is they don't give a sheet what oil I have in them, they just sound like a sewing machine and run. I could put in 4 different quarts (and do) of different weights and it runs. -10*F below, start it up and it runs. 104*F, start it up and it runs. Like my Big Blocks, just keep them full and they'll go forever. Yeah I'd want to fix any outstanding issues like a leaky injector, but I routinely idle all my cars for a 1/2 hour (I won't drive without heat) and I've never thought about fuel dilution in any of them. YMMV!
My Civics are reliable, mostly, transportation. I maintain them religiously, and its kinda cool to see an oil analysis on them, I just never thought about doing it!

 

[BISCUT]

All Supertech oil is Highline Warren.

Are you sure about that? I was under a different belief. Since the price went from $17 to $22 for a 5 quart in my area it has lost the shine I wil bug me to find out for sure tho....

 

[researcher]

When you replaced the injectors, were they new OE, refurb'd or aftermarket? @Trav on here does injector rebuilds so his input may be warranted depending on the answer to that question.

They are new aftermarket made by Standard Motor Products, in one of the carolinas, might have been South Carolina. I knew @Trav did rebuilds, would be good to get his input.

That is odd, I wonder what kind of quality control they have for their testing at Blackstone. Did they charge you for the retest?.

Nope they agreed they thought that it was odd how low the viscosity was.. They re-did the test for free.

I'm not making any judgement on the OP, just looking a this differently. I've had my share of 96-00 Civics. One thing I love about them, is they don't give a sheet what oil I have in them, they just sound like a sewing machine and run. I could put in 4 different quarts (and do) of different weights and it runs. -10*F below, start it up and it runs. 104*F, start it up and it runs. Like my Big Blocks, just keep them full and they'll go forever. Yeah I'd want to fix any outstanding issues like a leaky injector, but I routinely idle all my cars for a 1/2 hour (I won't drive without heat) and I've never thought about fuel dilution in any of them. YMMV!
My Civics are reliable, mostly, transportation. I maintain them religiously, and its kinda cool to see an oil analysis on them, I just never thought about doing it!

Hey that's awesome, you have big blocks and civics! Would be cool to see what your civic of that era would report back.. Most of the lab results of the 96-00 Civics I could find are around the same, all have lower flashpoints resulting in lower viscosity numbers.. But never affected the wear rates. Now that I see that this lab (Blackstone) made an error in the viscosity, I'll be trying another lab next time. @OVERKILL is spot on correct, cannot guess at how much fuel is in the oil. Rather have an exact number.

And you're right too, I know the Civic is running right, it sounds like a well tuned sewing machine!

 

[dezlpwr]

I was a fan of the Supertech Full Syn oil with everything that I researched before trying it in the 96 Civic. I will say that I'm not that impressed at all. It sheared down to a 5w20 in only 6 months and this with nothing but 90% highway driving! Plus I didn't like seeing a rise in wear numbers for Lead. Not a trend I'd like to see. Even Blackstone believed it was a 5w20 to start with (it wasn't), ouch!

Now I'm onto searching for another oil that doesn't shear like water in 2200 miles/6 months! It's not like the Civic is rough on oil, just the opposite. Also, the oils in the chart are Magnatec (newer formula), then the 2 with Titanium were the older Magnatec, before that was Toyota branded oil (not sure if it's syn, don't think so).

Anyone have any recommendations for an oil that doesn't shear down like this?
View attachment 140863

You can bet on your fuel dilution being 2-3 times more than what Blackstone is reporting. Their fuel dilution test is grossly inaccurate. That's why I switched to OAI.

 

[OVERKILL]

They are new aftermarket made by Standard Motor Products, in one of the carolinas, might have been South Carolina. I knew @Trav did rebuilds, would be good to get his input.

Nope they agreed they thought that it was odd how low the viscosity was.. They re-did the test for free.


Hey that's awesome, you have big blocks and civics! Would be cool to see what your civic of that era would report back.. Most of the lab results of the 96-00 Civics I could find are around the same, all have lower flashpoints resulting in lower viscosity numbers.. But never affected the wear rates. Now that I see that this lab (Blackstone) made an error in the viscosity, I'll be trying another lab next time. @OVERKILL is spot on correct, cannot guess at how much fuel is in the oil. Rather have an exact number.

And you're right too, I know the Civic is running right, it sounds like a well tuned sewing machine!

Do you still have the OE injectors out of it kicking around? Could send them to @Trav.

 

[researcher]

Do you still have the OE injectors out of it kicking around? Could send them to @Trav.

Unfortunately, the original OE injectors are long gone. What was in there when I picked up restoration was some so-called "Refurbished" oem when I got it, back then I didn't really know of @Trav work on them and those were tossed. Wish I had them to send to trav..

 

[researcher]

You can bet on your fuel dilution being 2-3 times more than what Blackstone is reporting. Their fuel dilution test is grossly inaccurate. That's why I switched to OAI.

thanks dezlpwr! I am definitely changing labs for the next testing, I am looking at OAI! How do you make sure they do the GC (gas chromatography) for the fuel level? Last time I had them test it was estimated.

But it will be good to have an actual number, sad that Blackstone has to guess.

 

[himemsys]

sad that Blackstone has to guess.

At least you get a ballpark figure, and enough people have sampled at both places with the same fluid that we can be fairly accurate in adding about 2-3% to Blackstone's number. As long as your flashpoint is 400 or higher, you know the amount of fuel in the oil is practically nil. It's actually not that bad if you prefer Blackstone for other reasons. I like their Universal Averages, which no other lab provides that I'm aware of. It tells you how a healthy version of your engine, on average performs and provides a good method of comparing your results to the same engine type.

 

[researcher]

At least you get a ballpark figure, and enough people have sampled at both places with the same fluid that we can be fairly accurate in adding about 2-3% to Blackstone's number. As long as your flashpoint is 400 or higher, you know the amount of fuel in the oil is practically nil. It's actually not that bad if you prefer Blackstone for other reasons. I like their Universal Averages, which no other lab provides that I'm aware of. It tells you how a healthy version of your engine, on average performs and provides a good method of comparing your results to the same engine type.

That is true it's a ballpark figure. My problem was coupled with two things, first the claim the flashpoint was so low and inferred the fuel % but that the viscosity was in the 5w20 range for a 5w30 oil. Now that we find out the test was in error I can forgive error but it shakes the trust that the numbers were accurate in the report. I do get what you're saying but for me guessing just disappeared when an error this much was revealed. I know no lab is perfect but I'm just questioning everything now.

I do appreciate you bringing up the point about 5w20 in a 5w30 bottle.. That's been answered it really is a 5w30.

I did check the injectors.. working to spec, I can't take them out, don't have a testing rig to show spray patterns they do appear to be working properly.. Checking the computer via the OBD2 scanner shows short term fuel trim at 0.8% and long term fuel trim at 2.3%, all completely normal. I am going to be replacing the computer and we'll see how the fuel injectors perform then. I explained in the previous post, EPA went after Honda back in the day and Honda was forced to fix the programming of the computer/ecu. I have the updated one to install, be interesting to see what it does. Who knows, maybe the older ecu was dumping too much fuel.. we will see..