8,000-mile results are in!
- Thread starter 3 Mad Ponchos
- Start date
- Status
From previous UOA on this board we know that the Amsoils all increase in viscocity as they get the mileage on, all of mine have done this over the years as well. However, a low 40W does not both me. Will see if it stays put, drops or whatever.
The TBN will be interesting as noted but if wear continues low some would argue that is the critical factor.
The TBN will be interesting as noted but if wear continues low some would argue that is the critical factor.
I don't see anything here which justifies a price premium for Amsoil over Mobil-1. Amsoil is thickening at a rapid pace and the TBN continues to drop like a rock. As far as wear metals go, it seems like the engine was trending down in the last half of the Mobil-1 run, probably due to it being throughly broken in. The only thing Amsoil seems to have going for it is lower iron trends.
What have you picked as the trigger point for ending the test? A particular TBN value, viscosity out of range, wear metal spike or what?
John
What have you picked as the trigger point for ending the test? A particular TBN value, viscosity out of range, wear metal spike or what?
John
3MP, have you thought of sending the results of this experiment (both the Mobil1 and Amsoil runs) to Amsoil for "their" comments? After all, they like to preach that their oil DOES outperform Mobil1. It seems to me, at least right now that Mobil1 has lasted a little bit more than twice the mileage that the Amsoil has. Interesting indeed!
I would bet a lot of money that if Amsoil comments they will probably try to discredit the methodology and/or the tester.
John
I won't question the methodology, but I will say that it should be the same....and is 3MP really adding as much oil as he was with the M1?
EDIT - What is the oil consumption with the Amsoil?
Wear metals are less. Much less.
I don't trust Blackstone's TBN methodology. Never have.
Sure the oil has thickened, but I don't expect much more thickening.
[ May 11, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
EDIT - What is the oil consumption with the Amsoil?
Wear metals are less. Much less.
I don't trust Blackstone's TBN methodology. Never have.
Sure the oil has thickened, but I don't expect much more thickening.
[ May 11, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
My take is that until Amsoil fails it is still in the game and any thing can happen!
It appears that this oil is on its last legs. How much longer can it hold out?
So far Amsoil has thickened up from 66.2 to 71.6. This is a rise of 8.16% and is well within the +-20% stay in grade guidelines.
On reviewing the TBN during the Mobil 1 test I noticed that a TBN of 2.5 could equate to anything from a 3 to 7.5 on the old scale. Also, a TBN of 1.9 equated to a 4 on the old scale. I would say the new TBN method leaves a lot to be desired and is suspect. Perhaps sending a sample to CTC to get a comparison reading would be a good idea or have Blackstone do the old method simulaneously as they did at the final 6 intervals on the Mobil 1.
[ May 12, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: wulimaster ]
On reviewing the TBN during the Mobil 1 test I noticed that a TBN of 2.5 could equate to anything from a 3 to 7.5 on the old scale. Also, a TBN of 1.9 equated to a 4 on the old scale. I would say the new TBN method leaves a lot to be desired and is suspect. Perhaps sending a sample to CTC to get a comparison reading would be a good idea or have Blackstone do the old method simulaneously as they did at the final 6 intervals on the Mobil 1.
[ May 12, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: wulimaster ]
Patman
Staff member
Here is a quick comparison between Amsoil at 8k and his last test with Mobil 1 at the 8k mark:
You guys might feel the numbers aren't much different but I beg to differ. Iron is considerably better with Amsoil and so is tin. Lead isn't as low as I thought it would be, but still better, and with the thicker viscosity you'll note the lead isn't increasing now, so it should continue that trend hopefully.
Iron wear is significantly reduced, however the engine does have more miles on it. Now if what Terry says about UOAs for M1/Amsoil not showing all the wear from carbon/deposits etc. this all means nothing.
I'm no fan of Redline, but I do believe one reason Terry does push it is bc it doesn't thicken. I'd take the slightly higher wear over an oil that thickens and will end up causing sludge over the slightly lower wear. This is a very important thing to consider IMO. Although if tear downs confirm that Amsoil/M1 do keep engines clean even in engines where the oil probably thickened to a 40wt, I'd have to really think about it. Mobil 1 is more shear stable it seems.
I'm no fan of Redline, but I do believe one reason Terry does push it is bc it doesn't thicken. I'd take the slightly higher wear over an oil that thickens and will end up causing sludge over the slightly lower wear. This is a very important thing to consider IMO. Although if tear downs confirm that Amsoil/M1 do keep engines clean even in engines where the oil probably thickened to a 40wt, I'd have to really think about it. Mobil 1 is more shear stable it seems.
At 2k ,4k ,5k and 7k miles this engine recieved 1/2 a quart of oil for a total of 2 fresh quarts in only 8k miles yet TBN still is dropping .
I forget , does Amsoil recommend 12 months or 25k with this oil ? If so , will a disclaimer need be made on the LS1 engine ?
My opinion is throw the small difference in wear metals out of this test because the engine is now run in - seasoned and at a sweet spot in it's life .
It's a cost vs performance thing ya know
and a wise man once told me oil should be condemned on the basis of TBN depletion, viscosity, silicon levels, or a trended increase in wear metals.
At least cost vs performance is how I percieve this test of 3MP's and the Mobil oil is 4 bucks a quart and did go 18k miles . So if another nameless oil will only test out to say 9k miles in the same engine , how much per quart is it worth to the average owner ?
Now I'm no expert but can do some simple math but if I'm missing something here I am open to and welcome explanations to aid me in what I am missing .
[ May 12, 2004, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
I forget , does Amsoil recommend 12 months or 25k with this oil ? If so , will a disclaimer need be made on the LS1 engine ?
My opinion is throw the small difference in wear metals out of this test because the engine is now run in - seasoned and at a sweet spot in it's life .
It's a cost vs performance thing ya know
At least cost vs performance is how I percieve this test of 3MP's and the Mobil oil is 4 bucks a quart and did go 18k miles . So if another nameless oil will only test out to say 9k miles in the same engine , how much per quart is it worth to the average owner ?
Now I'm no expert but can do some simple math but if I'm missing something here I am open to and welcome explanations to aid me in what I am missing .
[ May 12, 2004, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
Motorbike writes:
25K or 1 year. But your opinion is already formed, you have decided the oil is worn out. I don't think it is. Solids aren't out of control, TBN is fine, viscosity is up 8%, wear metals are great for this GM V8. Silicon? I don't get it. Please tell why you think the oil is worn out and even SS Dude writes:
And Mobil 1 received 1/2 qt more, for 2.5qts in 8K miles. TBN numerically looks low but per Blackstone above 1 is OK.
25K or 1 year. But your opinion is already formed, you have decided the oil is worn out. I don't think it is. Solids aren't out of control, TBN is fine, viscosity is up 8%, wear metals are great for this GM V8. Silicon? I don't get it. Please tell why you think the oil is worn out and even SS Dude writes:
Buster says:
Please explain these comments to me.
Blackstone condemns TBN at 2 ..... not 1 for the record .
TBN currently is at 2.4 and Boron uptake seems to have leveled off .Please take and put the Mobil test aside for a moment though .
Now , care to take a guesstimate of what the TBN might be right now w/o those two quarts of make-up oil in 8k miles ?
As for your question about Silicone that relates to dirt ingestion , not a factor here .
This oil started life at 11.9 cSt's and is now 13.4 and thats with 2 quarts make-up oil .This hobby of mine here allows me to take alot into consideration to include possible reduced fuel mileage from the thickening and the remarks made on the 3MP's site which was :
At this point the oil looks black, like used oil ought to. It also continues to thicken up, and is now officially a 5W40 oil instead of the 5W30 we poured in there. Frankly, this annoys the heck out of us -- if we wanted a 40 weight oil in there, we would have bought a 40 weight oil -- and we would have quit right here, except it's not worth the din of hate mail we'd get.
Regardless of my opinions or remarks based on opinion and the analysis , the test marches on but with a TBN of 2.4 and right at 10,000 miles to go .
If one was to find a new oil with a starting TBN of 2.4 per Blackstones method would it make it to 10k miles in this engine ?
TBN currently is at 2.4 and Boron uptake seems to have leveled off .Please take and put the Mobil test aside for a moment though .
Now , care to take a guesstimate of what the TBN might be right now w/o those two quarts of make-up oil in 8k miles ?
As for your question about Silicone that relates to dirt ingestion , not a factor here .
This oil started life at 11.9 cSt's and is now 13.4 and thats with 2 quarts make-up oil .This hobby of mine here allows me to take alot into consideration to include possible reduced fuel mileage from the thickening and the remarks made on the 3MP's site which was :
At this point the oil looks black, like used oil ought to. It also continues to thicken up, and is now officially a 5W40 oil instead of the 5W30 we poured in there. Frankly, this annoys the heck out of us -- if we wanted a 40 weight oil in there, we would have bought a 40 weight oil -- and we would have quit right here, except it's not worth the din of hate mail we'd get.
Regardless of my opinions or remarks based on opinion and the analysis , the test marches on but with a TBN of 2.4 and right at 10,000 miles to go .
If one was to find a new oil with a starting TBN of 2.4 per Blackstones method would it make it to 10k miles in this engine ?
This might be a bit of presumption but if I were to send in a sample to Blackstone " experts in their field " of an oil with all elements within limit except for the TBN was at 2.4 , the oil had thickened by 1.5 cSt's at say 7500 miles I can't help but think they might flag the oil and recommend a bit lower miles on the next interval and retest .
My opinion here is the difference lays in that this is controlled testing and different than most real world intervals of dump the oil and filter and start anew and not let the precursors of sludge get too far along .
I still welcome any information that would enable me to learn something I'm missing and or persuade me to change my thoughts/opinions about this oil in this engine .
My opinion here is the difference lays in that this is controlled testing and different than most real world intervals of dump the oil and filter and start anew and not let the precursors of sludge get too far along .
I still welcome any information that would enable me to learn something I'm missing and or persuade me to change my thoughts/opinions about this oil in this engine .
Motorbike - so basically you are going by the TBN of 2.4.
It would be really intersting to see how Mobil-1 performed in this engine now at the sweet spot of it's life.
Even more interesting would be GC.
John
Even more interesting would be GC.
John
In terms of pure wear I feel the M1 would be as good or better then the Amsoil if the M1 was being used now instead of being used 1st in the new engine. At this point to me it looks like M1 is the clear winner because it looks to have lasted much longer being used in the new engine which is harder on the oil and even though the wear is higher the engine was still breaking in. M1 is truly a great oil...not the best but one of them!
- Status