I recently realized most of the drop in Mo was from dilution with previous fill.
5w20 Havoline 4850mi, Subaru 2.5L w.90k mi
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Valve clearance inspection on one side showed almost all in spec, after 75000 miles. I'm hoping wear is zero, but it could be that valve surface wear is perfectly balanced with cam+lifter. Lifters are roller type, adjustable with screw and nut
. Engine is nearly clean like new. A slight grey film that wiped off easily was on iron parts. This might be similar to the stuff that builds on the magnetic drain plug. Camshaft was hidden from view, but followers had thin lines scratched in that could not be felt by touch.
correction: This head has 93,000 miles it. The driver's side one only has 75,000, but it's harder to work on.
6250 winter miles on 5w20 Havoline SM, and drain plug magnet again has similar thick buildup of very fine black powder. I'm trying Motomaster F1 conventional 5w20 now, to see if that gives a cleaner magnet than last summer's.
This was over winter, and last winter QS winter blend 5w30 also showed a lot of buildup on the magnet after 5600 miles. So thin oil might not be making a huge difference in ferrous wear.
This was over winter, and last winter QS winter blend 5w30 also showed a lot of buildup on the magnet after 5600 miles. So thin oil might not be making a huge difference in ferrous wear.
I drained the Motomaster F1 5w-20 after 6000 km, because the engine was getting very noisy when hot, and I wanted to try another oil. Last summer's Havoline 5w-20 had 1.6x4850 = 7275 km, but the drain plug magnet had roughly 2.5x the volume of iron paste buildup. Last summer, the tops of the magnets were mounded up with iron powder, and they were quite fattened around the ends. This summer, there's only a slight ring around the ends, and the flat tops are still flat. I only have a picture of this year's buildup:
Oil was replaced with Pennzoil 20W-20 bought at a farm supply place. It looks like the Canadian Tire 5W-20 did pretty well.
note: The magnet is not calibrated and may have weakened all of a sudden for this test, resulting in less iron buildup.
Oil was replaced with Pennzoil 20W-20 bought at a farm supply place. It looks like the Canadian Tire 5W-20 did pretty well.
note: The magnet is not calibrated and may have weakened all of a sudden for this test, resulting in less iron buildup.
I like to bend the rules, especially if it saves gas. The 5w-20s usually have better deposit performance, so the engine should stay cleaner.
Car now has Pennzoil 20w-20, and it feels more sluggish, as if I had 10w-30 in there, but not as sluggish as 15w-40. I want to see if this oil, which has the same viscosity at 100C as the 5w20, will cause less iron buildup on the magnet, due to more ZDDP, and HTHS viscosity similar to 5w-30.
Car now has Pennzoil 20w-20, and it feels more sluggish, as if I had 10w-30 in there, but not as sluggish as 15w-40. I want to see if this oil, which has the same viscosity at 100C as the 5w20, will cause less iron buildup on the magnet, due to more ZDDP, and HTHS viscosity similar to 5w-30.
The Pennzoil 20w-20 did well after 7758 km this summer, by the looks of the magnet.
note - error in mile-km calc in previous post
On the left is the previous winter after only 6000 km with 5w-20 Motomaster F1 (silver jug). This summer's oil was 6 years old bottles of 20w-20. Winter usually gives more iron than summer. Both oils yielded much less iron buildup than winter 2005-6 and summer 2006 with Havoline 5w-20. I hope the new Havoline controls iron wear a lot better than the stuff I tried. I might get ahold of more 20w-20 for next summer.
In went Quaker State Winter 5w-30, with no magnets. A UOA will be done on this fill.
note - error in mile-km calc in previous post
On the left is the previous winter after only 6000 km with 5w-20 Motomaster F1 (silver jug). This summer's oil was 6 years old bottles of 20w-20. Winter usually gives more iron than summer. Both oils yielded much less iron buildup than winter 2005-6 and summer 2006 with Havoline 5w-20. I hope the new Havoline controls iron wear a lot better than the stuff I tried. I might get ahold of more 20w-20 for next summer.
In went Quaker State Winter 5w-30, with no magnets. A UOA will be done on this fill.
Quote:
Why does the UOA not reflect the amount of iron powder caught by the magnet. Is the magnet removing ALL the iron from mechanical wear? The ppm/mile in the UOA for this summer interval was the same as last year's, but the magnet had three times as much stuff on it. Could the UOA only be detecting iron corrosion, with my magnet removing all the wear particles?
Yes, it's possible. UOA's are limited in scope.
Why does the UOA not reflect the amount of iron powder caught by the magnet. Is the magnet removing ALL the iron from mechanical wear? The ppm/mile in the UOA for this summer interval was the same as last year's, but the magnet had three times as much stuff on it. Could the UOA only be detecting iron corrosion, with my magnet removing all the wear particles?
Yes, it's possible. UOA's are limited in scope.
Originally Posted By: TooSlick
Gman,
In these cases, I'd normally recommend doing a particle count to see if the thinner lube is generating significantly more wear. Spectrographic analysis is sort of a blunt instrument when trying to pin down specific types of wear mechanisms.
Ted
Actually TS said it best and it's exactly what Redline said.
Gman,
In these cases, I'd normally recommend doing a particle count to see if the thinner lube is generating significantly more wear. Spectrographic analysis is sort of a blunt instrument when trying to pin down specific types of wear mechanisms.
Ted
Actually TS said it best and it's exactly what Redline said.
Again - the more Fe garbage on your maggot, the more Fe in solution (ie Fe ppm detected in an analysis)
Pablo, oilyriser said:
"The ppm/mile in the UOA for this summer interval was the same as last year's, but the magnet had three times as much stuff on it."
Isn't that more FE garbage on magnet but same amount of FE detected in the analysis?
"The ppm/mile in the UOA for this summer interval was the same as last year's, but the magnet had three times as much stuff on it."
Isn't that more FE garbage on magnet but same amount of FE detected in the analysis?
I'm not denying what he saw....I suppose it's possible in some engines, situations....for the magnet to get loaded up before the visible Fe causes further wear. IN my experience....when I pull a fully loaded magnet...the oil will be higher Fe....
The worst magnet I saw was back in the old days was a differential drain magnet in a Dana 30 rear. Fe was about 600 ppm. When I pull a smoothly clean engine oil magnet, I know the Fe will be low.
It might be interesting to get a characterization of the stuff on a magnet.
The worst magnet I saw was back in the old days was a differential drain magnet in a Dana 30 rear. Fe was about 600 ppm. When I pull a smoothly clean engine oil magnet, I know the Fe will be low.
It might be interesting to get a characterization of the stuff on a magnet.
I think it makes sense that if the magnet has small amount of particles, the UOA will agree. But there have been cases where the magnet shows a lot of particles but the UOA shows low or medium detected levels. There are several explanations for this that have been brought up before.
My microscopic analysis of the particles (with less than ideal magnfication) shows shiny (given good lighting) iron or steel particles with a significant range of sizes.
My microscopic analysis of the particles (with less than ideal magnfication) shows shiny (given good lighting) iron or steel particles with a significant range of sizes.
Someone's got way too much free time on their hands...
After 7900 miles of Mobil 1 0w20, I found this. The drain plug tipped over onto the paper towel after I put it down, and the metal washer got pulled in by one of the magnets, so one of them has the iron past scraped off a bit.
Mobil 1 high iron?
UOA will be coming in soon. I predict higher iron per mile than ever, and slight viscosity increase, since the car was feeling a little more sluggish towards the end. This is twice the length of interval compared to last winter with 5w20, but looks like 3x the iron buildup. There weren't any palpable particles in the paste, just very fine black powder.
Mobil 1 high iron?
UOA will be coming in soon. I predict higher iron per mile than ever, and slight viscosity increase, since the car was feeling a little more sluggish towards the end. This is twice the length of interval compared to last winter with 5w20, but looks like 3x the iron buildup. There weren't any palpable particles in the paste, just very fine black powder.
I commend you for your efforts. But I believe there is a reason that subaru recommends 30wt. vs 20 wt. Its unlikely that the 20 wt. is giving you more than .5 mpg. extra. Statistically with large samples, I believe that the increase was .35 mpg. And that's with engines designed for it.
I tried it in my 01 Sentra and mileage was actually down with the 20 wt. I have no intention on using it on my Forester. I think the horizontal pistons in the Boxer Engine argue against the 20 wt. There will be more wear on the cylinder.
If you are getting more mileage it its probably the "Placebo Effect"
I tried it in my 01 Sentra and mileage was actually down with the 20 wt. I have no intention on using it on my Forester. I think the horizontal pistons in the Boxer Engine argue against the 20 wt. There will be more wear on the cylinder.
If you are getting more mileage it its probably the "Placebo Effect"
That's a lot of ferrous debris on those magnets compared to what I see on my drain plug magnet. I just pulled my drain plug magnet the other day and photographed it and will post it within a few days. It was Amsoil ACD in my VW 1.8T.
Mobil 1 0W-40 never showed clearly higher amounts of ferrous debris on my magnets than other oils. M1 0W-40 is a different formulation and viscosity than your M1 0W-20, of course.
Cool experiment with M1 0W-20. It looks like it's telling you it should be avoided in the future. The problem seems to lie with this particular oil, not the viscosity grade alone since you've used other 20 weights with apparently less rate of ferrous wear.
Mobil 1 0W-40 never showed clearly higher amounts of ferrous debris on my magnets than other oils. M1 0W-40 is a different formulation and viscosity than your M1 0W-20, of course.
Cool experiment with M1 0W-20. It looks like it's telling you it should be avoided in the future. The problem seems to lie with this particular oil, not the viscosity grade alone since you've used other 20 weights with apparently less rate of ferrous wear.
Here is a thread with my drain plug magnet pictures. Big difference from how your most recent one looks. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1161314#Post1161314
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