I am really starting to wonder if the push for 5W-20 which is a premium base stock oil, the CAFE requirements, speculators on the stock markets, and the newer unleaded gas being less polluting are the reasons gas is getting outrageous in price. IMO, the oil of 3 years ago was fine as was the gas. All of this trouble for a commodity that will soon be gone makes no sense to me.
5W-20 question
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If the commodity is soon to be gone why should you worry if the consumer of said commodity will last long?
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I personally don't have issues with those who don't use the search. The function is somewhat cumbersome just due to the multiple terms that bleed over into many unrelated posts. You can do about an hour of researching what the engine pukes out ..or just post. I can understand the post poster.
Sorry if I misread your intent there.
It would be cool if Ford or another manufacturer recommending 5W-20 for all its engines perhaps had a 30 minute special on TV showing why using 5W-20 is better than 5W-30 which most all of the auto manufacturers use to recommend. GM is still recommending 5W-30. Are they not concerned about CAFE standards and saving vehicle owner's .5% of their gas?
I am profoundly curious as to why Ford, Honda, Toyota, etc. decided to make engine clearances and bearings and such use tighter clearances so they would have to use thinner oils. It doesn't make any sense to me. In fact, I wonder if it is true.
However, quite a few of the 5.7L Hemi owners have to run 5W-20 as the engine shuts down cylinders when the vehicles using that engine are at a constant speed. The thing that makes this 'cylinder killer' operate does indeed have tight clearances.
Then the old argument that to me is still a very valid one is heat. You want the oil to be thick when the weather and engine are both hot. It really isn't an argument. It is a fact. Thick hot oil protects engines better than thin hot oil.
Remember, with 5W-30 or an other multi-weight oils, hot 30 weight is much thinner and more fluid than cold 5 weight in winter.
To be honest and no offense to anyone, I don't think any of us here can really answer the question. None of us are in the know.
But one thing is for certain, it is generally best to follow the recommendations in your vehicle's owner's manual.
My 1998 Ford Mustang GT with the 4.6L V-8 engine is one of the cars Ford says to now use 5W-20 in as opposed to using 5W-30 which the vehicle's owner's manual has always specified and the car has always used. I know the clearances and bearings in my engine are no tighter than when they were all new. I sent an e-mail to Ford which will hopefully be answered asking why should I use 5W-20 instead of 5W-30. If I receive a response, I will happily share it here on BITOG.
This image from a vehicle owner's manual (not sure of the model or make) interests me...
As you can clearly see, both 5W-20 and 5W-30 protect to the same temperature range and cover the same temperature range as 10W-30. All 3 of these weights appear to cover you to 110°F outside temperature. I am skeptical that a 20 weight hot oil can protect an engine as well as a hot 30 weight oil.
My state, Illinois, is a funny weather state. We have cold winters which sometimes get to -10°F and summers that get up to 105°F. Other states like Texas get hotter than Illinois. The point I am trying to make is that states with hot temperatures probably want to be using at least 5W-30 in the engines of vehicles there.
Anyway, I think we are all still learning. To me at least, it makes since that a lighter oil can lubricate better in that it can move more heat due to its thinness. But if the engine overheats which happens, can the film left by 5W-20 protect the engine? Here is a quote which really makes me wonder this...
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance
"In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture."
I am profoundly curious as to why Ford, Honda, Toyota, etc. decided to make engine clearances and bearings and such use tighter clearances so they would have to use thinner oils. It doesn't make any sense to me. In fact, I wonder if it is true.
However, quite a few of the 5.7L Hemi owners have to run 5W-20 as the engine shuts down cylinders when the vehicles using that engine are at a constant speed. The thing that makes this 'cylinder killer' operate does indeed have tight clearances.
Then the old argument that to me is still a very valid one is heat. You want the oil to be thick when the weather and engine are both hot. It really isn't an argument. It is a fact. Thick hot oil protects engines better than thin hot oil.
Remember, with 5W-30 or an other multi-weight oils, hot 30 weight is much thinner and more fluid than cold 5 weight in winter.
To be honest and no offense to anyone, I don't think any of us here can really answer the question. None of us are in the know.
But one thing is for certain, it is generally best to follow the recommendations in your vehicle's owner's manual.
My 1998 Ford Mustang GT with the 4.6L V-8 engine is one of the cars Ford says to now use 5W-20 in as opposed to using 5W-30 which the vehicle's owner's manual has always specified and the car has always used. I know the clearances and bearings in my engine are no tighter than when they were all new. I sent an e-mail to Ford which will hopefully be answered asking why should I use 5W-20 instead of 5W-30. If I receive a response, I will happily share it here on BITOG.
This image from a vehicle owner's manual (not sure of the model or make) interests me...
As you can clearly see, both 5W-20 and 5W-30 protect to the same temperature range and cover the same temperature range as 10W-30. All 3 of these weights appear to cover you to 110°F outside temperature. I am skeptical that a 20 weight hot oil can protect an engine as well as a hot 30 weight oil.
My state, Illinois, is a funny weather state. We have cold winters which sometimes get to -10°F and summers that get up to 105°F. Other states like Texas get hotter than Illinois. The point I am trying to make is that states with hot temperatures probably want to be using at least 5W-30 in the engines of vehicles there.
Anyway, I think we are all still learning. To me at least, it makes since that a lighter oil can lubricate better in that it can move more heat due to its thinness. But if the engine overheats which happens, can the film left by 5W-20 protect the engine? Here is a quote which really makes me wonder this...
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance
"In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).
If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peakquote:
Originally posted by Bryanccfshr:
If the commodity is soon to be gone why should you worry if the consumer of said commodity will last long?
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You want the oil to be thick when the weather and engine are both hot. It really isn't an argument. It is a fact. Thick hot oil protects engines better than thin hot oil.
Can I take your word here as the ultimate truth here, Buford???
Can I apply that under all conditions and circumstances ....world wide ..thoroughout the known universe??
Can I take your word here as the ultimate truth here, Buford???
Can I apply that under all conditions and circumstances ....world wide ..thoroughout the known universe??
I also think Ford wanted a better quality oil for lease vehicles and warranty coverage. By developing 5W-20 and requiring stringent testing to meet their specs, it appears they have accomplished just that.
Flame away Buford!
Flame away Buford!
Well he said it so it must be true. No argument, just a fact.
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Buford, just to attempt to bring this back to sensible conversation (casting a glance and a quick smile at farrarfan1 for my no lo contenderie at being a wisearse
) ...can you show me the massive failures of warm climate cars with 5w-20 oils? I don't see any ..nor are there any noted on our ever so swift internet "street beat". How can this be
Hi,Just moved from South Florida to Northern New Mexico. I've been using Motorcraft 5W-20 in my '03 Ford Focus/28K miles.The hills and heat(summer)put quite a strain along with the ac on the little 4-cylinder.The local Wal-Mart is selling this oil for under $10/5-quart jug.The price is lower than any oil but the house brand! Maybe, thats due to local demand(no demand)?
I use M-SUV 5W-40 in my '99 Econoline(full size) Van/4.2L six.
Ron
I use M-SUV 5W-40 in my '99 Econoline(full size) Van/4.2L six.
Ron
All that temp stuff is fine and dandy, but you are mixing ambient temp data and oil sump temps. In the absence of an OT gauge, how do we know if the oil is actually getting hotter and thinner in summer? I think on new cars, it is probally within 10f-20f OT when there is a swing of 100f outside. Just my guess.
I've had my 5cyl Audi with gobs of timing advance off the OT scale, like +170C! I've also had my stock V6 A4 never budge beyond +220f and normal is +200f.
Now I have this new Acura w/5w-20 on the cap. I am using up my M1 0w-30 stash on it because it works. For winter, I will be adding a q of 5w-20. It's a pretty conservative approach. If I was buying dino oil (which makes the most sense) I'd DEFINATELY buy 5w-20 over 5w-30. Maybe blending it is good too. I dunno for everyone, but I AM using mostly Havoline 5w-20 now for break-in... also a quart of Havoline Synth 5w-30 is in the crankcase though.
I've had my 5cyl Audi with gobs of timing advance off the OT scale, like +170C! I've also had my stock V6 A4 never budge beyond +220f and normal is +200f.
Now I have this new Acura w/5w-20 on the cap. I am using up my M1 0w-30 stash on it because it works. For winter, I will be adding a q of 5w-20. It's a pretty conservative approach. If I was buying dino oil (which makes the most sense) I'd DEFINATELY buy 5w-20 over 5w-30. Maybe blending it is good too. I dunno for everyone, but I AM using mostly Havoline 5w-20 now for break-in... also a quart of Havoline Synth 5w-30 is in the crankcase though.
Yes, follow the owner's manual. Because that is the bible of oil-related maintenance right? Wrong!
As I posted (before the mods simply decided to lock the thread which was interesting and very active), different countries get different oil recommendations for the same car. My Accord in Japan get 10-30 or 10-40 recommendation.
And please, don't tell me that we have "better oils"/fuels etc. No, we do not. Europe has more advanced oil and car technology then we do. Our gasoline is inferior in quality, our diesel fuel as well (that is set to change this year) etc...etc...
Yes, you can use what your manual recommends you and if you change oil every 3-5k, it does not almost matter what grade you use - you will get your 200k or more from your engine. And thats fine.
However, to "blindly" believe a manual (which differs for the same car from a country to a country) is just plain ignorance. I am using and will continue to use in my 2005 Accord and CRV Mobil 1 Euro Formula O-40 in the winter and 10-30/40 in the summer. And as I make 40k miles or more per year now, in four years when the cars are paid off, I should have (on Accord at least) over 200k miles. I then need the car to last at least another 150k miles. And that is why I am using thicker oil because it does better protect engine from the wear. You will not see BMW, Mercedes recommending 5-20 oils. On contrary - 40 weights are recommended. Sports cars also use thicker oils.
Engine clearances issues? B.S. people. It is difficult to fight a "tighter" engine from Ferrari, Porche, M3 etc. and they all recommend thick oils.
So, 5-20 users - great use it, you'll be fine under most circumstances, but your engine at 400k will not look the same as someone's who used thicker oil. That's just common sense. But, let's wait until I have 400k on my engine and then do oil analysis between my car and someone who used 5-20 (presuming he sees 400k miles).
Fair enough?
As I posted (before the mods simply decided to lock the thread which was interesting and very active), different countries get different oil recommendations for the same car. My Accord in Japan get 10-30 or 10-40 recommendation.
And please, don't tell me that we have "better oils"/fuels etc. No, we do not. Europe has more advanced oil and car technology then we do. Our gasoline is inferior in quality, our diesel fuel as well (that is set to change this year) etc...etc...
Yes, you can use what your manual recommends you and if you change oil every 3-5k, it does not almost matter what grade you use - you will get your 200k or more from your engine. And thats fine.
However, to "blindly" believe a manual (which differs for the same car from a country to a country) is just plain ignorance. I am using and will continue to use in my 2005 Accord and CRV Mobil 1 Euro Formula O-40 in the winter and 10-30/40 in the summer. And as I make 40k miles or more per year now, in four years when the cars are paid off, I should have (on Accord at least) over 200k miles. I then need the car to last at least another 150k miles. And that is why I am using thicker oil because it does better protect engine from the wear. You will not see BMW, Mercedes recommending 5-20 oils. On contrary - 40 weights are recommended. Sports cars also use thicker oils.
Engine clearances issues? B.S. people. It is difficult to fight a "tighter" engine from Ferrari, Porche, M3 etc. and they all recommend thick oils.
So, 5-20 users - great use it, you'll be fine under most circumstances, but your engine at 400k will not look the same as someone's who used thicker oil. That's just common sense. But, let's wait until I have 400k on my engine and then do oil analysis between my car and someone who used 5-20 (presuming he sees 400k miles).
Fair enough?
And to the original poster - since you are in Arizona and its hot there consider using 10-30 synthetic in your car (at least after warranty period - not that they can void warranty for this reason).
Mobil 1 or Amsoil would be my first choice with 5k miles OCIs and a good oil filter (Mobil 1 for example).
New Camry looks good. I especially like the SE version as it has a stiffer suspension and better handling.
Mobil 1 or Amsoil would be my first choice with 5k miles OCIs and a good oil filter (Mobil 1 for example).
New Camry looks good. I especially like the SE version as it has a stiffer suspension and better handling.
YES!
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Have you been to Japan and talked to a Japanese car owner? You don't know their disposition in regards to automobiles. We can't live without them. We also don't have a substantial industrial base (autos being about the last bastian) that absolutely thrives on consumption (our economy thrives on consumption).
Europe also spec's almost exclusively synths for their extended drains. They also pay for them ..at a substantial premium. Something easier to do for a population that has a "driving is optional" enviroment. It's quite a different thing when you have a near 100% dependancy on personal transportation. You have to accomodate a greater span to include the "lowest common denominator".
Also ..don't confuse Europe with Asia and the third world nations.
Again, Euros all spec extended drains and all spec synths. If you can get the entire population to buy Euro designed cars and actually get the owners to maintain them to Euro spec's ...it will work just as well as it does for the Euros here.
..and they all recommend synths. This is the great neutralizer in your argument. Also ...do you see GM, Ford, and DC marketing anything like those aforementioned vehicles "en mass"? There are a select few that spec synths from the factory ..otherwise we have a somewhat generic fleet.
I don't think that you can assume that at all. I doubt that enough vehicles of any method of maintenance ever reach that mileage for any valid comparison. I'm sure that you're not the only scoffing owner that uses heavier oils (you are using a synth, btw) ..yet I don't think that you'll have much company at the 400k mark to add to your claims. It's a severe stretch to think that you will make it there. The odds say that some non lubrication related issue, that may infact involve the engine, will junk your ride well before that. Accidents can surely be one of them over that time span.
So, do you recommend that Honda (everyone, actually) spec high end synths for every automobile operating in the USA? Can Mobil produce enough 0w-40 for every swinging XXXX to use it? Can every driver/owner use it to make it economical? Will every swinging XXXX be able to assume that they'll get 400k out of their car if they follow your plan??
I don't think so
Well, I guess I just don't have the common sense to realize that an engine that has 5W-20 prominently displayed on the oil filler and in my owner's manual won't last 400k miles using 5W-20. By all means Accord, please share with us your expert proof that it won't look the same after 400k miles, presuming I see 400k miles. I guess your citing the owner's manuals in other countries is the only proof you need, and just because BMW doesn't spec 5W-20 is absolute proof. I guess that's like saying that if I wear a lead-shielded suit I won't get sunburned, so obviously some thin layer of SPF-40 just won't be good enough. Is it as good a sunblock as a lead shield? No. Do you need to wear a lead shield? No. Will you ever be able to tell the difference 40 years from now? Probably not.
My 1977 MG Midget specs 20W-50 oil. Does this mean I should run 5W-20 in it? Of course not. It's a 30 year old car, and it's meant to run on oil IT WAS DESIGNED FOR. It has sloppy bearing tolerances, no camshaft bearings, and would make a Honda engineer cringe in disbelief. If I put 5W-20 in it, I'd bet the oil pressure will be nonexistant at idle. And since the crankshaft mains and thrust washers are problematic on the 1500 engine, they need all the oil they can get. Oh but wait, that would just prove that 5W-20 is no good according to some folks here. Would I put 20W-50 in my Honda? No, because some of us would rather not find out what an exploding oil filter is like, and it's not in my owner's manual.
Maybe when we get some actual data proving that 5W-20 is no good instead of just conjecture, then maybe I'll believe that it's all a big conspiracy by the automakers to get slight increase in gas mileage and the engine will be short lived. In the meantime we just have to avoid reading too much into the self-proclaimed experts who say "I think 5w-20 is too thin". And if if my engine makes it only 390,000 miles instead of 400,000 miles, WHO CARES??? Maybe the fuel costs I saved getting there would make up for it!
Wow. This discussion got kinda ugly =/
I bought a Toyota because I think they are the best cars made in terms of reliability. I should just follow the manual rec but all this reading about CAFE, etc. gets me all worried about it.
I was hoping for some factual info about how engines wear with 20 weight oil. Really, there isn't much in this thread... mostly just assumptions and conjecture about Europe, CAFE, etc.
I hate taking gambles. I guess I don't have much choice.
I bought a Toyota because I think they are the best cars made in terms of reliability. I should just follow the manual rec but all this reading about CAFE, etc. gets me all worried about it.
I was hoping for some factual info about how engines wear with 20 weight oil. Really, there isn't much in this thread... mostly just assumptions and conjecture about Europe, CAFE, etc.
I hate taking gambles. I guess I don't have much choice.
Look at all the 5w-20 UOA reports on this website. A few in engines that spec 5/10w-30. They are all fantastic and in some of the ones where 5w-20 was NOT speced, wear was BETTER!
If your manual calls for 5W20 use that. Period. End of discussion. 5W20 works and does an excellent job when called for.
This topic is closed. Just another rehash of the same stuff. 5W20 is here to stay. I use 5W20 in a 2000 Mazda that calls for 5/10W30 oils.
This topic is closed. Just another rehash of the same stuff. 5W20 is here to stay. I use 5W20 in a 2000 Mazda that calls for 5/10W30 oils.
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