5W-20 or 0W-20
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Originally Posted By: 45ACP
I am aware the SM was a good oil and the SN got CAStrated by CAStrol but i dont think the SN is a "bad" oil now like the Toyota stuff is.
And by BAD i mean "Does not shear down to a 10-weight, as we keep reading on here that 20-weight oils DONT do. Yet, CATERHAM's favorite oil does."
As soon as you can post some empirical data that the Toyota 0w20 shears to a 10 weight, you 'might' be taken seriously.
Posting a link to another thread that also doesn't have any proof that it shears to a 10 weight isn't proof.
I am aware the SM was a good oil and the SN got CAStrated by CAStrol but i dont think the SN is a "bad" oil now like the Toyota stuff is.
And by BAD i mean "Does not shear down to a 10-weight, as we keep reading on here that 20-weight oils DONT do. Yet, CATERHAM's favorite oil does."
As soon as you can post some empirical data that the Toyota 0w20 shears to a 10 weight, you 'might' be taken seriously.
Posting a link to another thread that also doesn't have any proof that it shears to a 10 weight isn't proof.
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Originally Posted By: Capa
Well, I just made it back from Wal-mart and noticed that Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 is $27. I wish I could find a reliable PDS on it because I am tempted to try it. I've never seen it but I hear Penn has an 0W-20.
Don't forget the $5 gift card per jug, limit 2 through 12/31. That takes PU down to a net of $4.40/qt and PP to $4.00/qt. You're not going to do better than that anytime soon.
Well, I just made it back from Wal-mart and noticed that Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 is $27. I wish I could find a reliable PDS on it because I am tempted to try it. I've never seen it but I hear Penn has an 0W-20.
Don't forget the $5 gift card per jug, limit 2 through 12/31. That takes PU down to a net of $4.40/qt and PP to $4.00/qt. You're not going to do better than that anytime soon.
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Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: Capa
Well, I just made it back from Wal-mart and noticed that Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 is $27. I wish I could find a reliable PDS on it because I am tempted to try it. I've never seen it but I hear Penn has an 0W-20.
Don't forget the $5 gift card per jug, limit 2 through 12/31. That takes PU down to a net of $4.40/qt and PP to $4.00/qt. You're not going to do better than that anytime soon.
What gift card?
Originally Posted By: Capa
Well, I just made it back from Wal-mart and noticed that Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 is $27. I wish I could find a reliable PDS on it because I am tempted to try it. I've never seen it but I hear Penn has an 0W-20.
Don't forget the $5 gift card per jug, limit 2 through 12/31. That takes PU down to a net of $4.40/qt and PP to $4.00/qt. You're not going to do better than that anytime soon.
What gift card?
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
That said, aside from some people's M1 exclusive advice which isnt all bad all the time but is repetitive, there is a lot of good about this resource of motor oil opinions. And not everyone is sold on the thinner oil idea.
Opinions are a whole lot like nostrils. Most folks have got a couple of them and when you look at them closely, they're not too pretty.
That said, aside from some people's M1 exclusive advice which isnt all bad all the time but is repetitive, there is a lot of good about this resource of motor oil opinions. And not everyone is sold on the thinner oil idea.
Opinions are a whole lot like nostrils. Most folks have got a couple of them and when you look at them closely, they're not too pretty.
Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: Capa
Well, I just made it back from Wal-mart and noticed that Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 is $27. I wish I could find a reliable PDS on it because I am tempted to try it. I've never seen it but I hear Penn has an 0W-20.
Don't forget the $5 gift card per jug, limit 2 through 12/31. That takes PU down to a net of $4.40/qt and PP to $4.00/qt. You're not going to do better than that anytime soon.
What gift card?
http://www.shellrebatecenter.com/pzltradeup/
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: Capa
Well, I just made it back from Wal-mart and noticed that Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 is $27. I wish I could find a reliable PDS on it because I am tempted to try it. I've never seen it but I hear Penn has an 0W-20.
Don't forget the $5 gift card per jug, limit 2 through 12/31. That takes PU down to a net of $4.40/qt and PP to $4.00/qt. You're not going to do better than that anytime soon.
What gift card?
http://www.shellrebatecenter.com/pzltradeup/
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I love BITOG. Here I am wavering back and forth between Mobil 0W-20 and Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 and I found an UOA that ran both with great results:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2473883/
I'm going to wait and see if AAP will run that Mobil special tomorrow without an MIR. Unfortunately for Mobil if there is an MIR I will get the Ultra with the $5 rebate since it already is priced so well without the rebate.
Any comments on Mobil 0W-20 vs Ultra 5W-20 welcome.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2473883/
I'm going to wait and see if AAP will run that Mobil special tomorrow without an MIR. Unfortunately for Mobil if there is an MIR I will get the Ultra with the $5 rebate since it already is priced so well without the rebate.
Any comments on Mobil 0W-20 vs Ultra 5W-20 welcome.
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Originally Posted By: Capa
I love BITOG. Here I am wavering back and forth between Mobil 0W-20 and Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 and I found an UOA that ran both with great results:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2473883/
I'm going to wait and see if AAP will run that Mobil special tomorrow without an MIR. Unfortunately for Mobil if there is an MIR I will get the Ultra with the $5 rebate since it already is priced so well without the rebate.
Any comments on Mobil 0W-20 vs Ultra 5W-20 welcome.
Id use Ultra 5W-20
1. Just to be different
2. because you can
3. To have an oil that Ferrari is purported to use, that flies in the face of all others that use M1. also,
4. To help sales! Ultra is kind of a dud, and you can help reverse that (is at not many Walmarts.)
and 5. Because, despite the name, it is a really, really good oil. Pennzoil's best!
As to quality of the oil, M1 is involved so hey nothing i can say about Pennzoil that can make it compete there right
I love BITOG. Here I am wavering back and forth between Mobil 0W-20 and Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 and I found an UOA that ran both with great results:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2473883/
I'm going to wait and see if AAP will run that Mobil special tomorrow without an MIR. Unfortunately for Mobil if there is an MIR I will get the Ultra with the $5 rebate since it already is priced so well without the rebate.
Any comments on Mobil 0W-20 vs Ultra 5W-20 welcome.
Id use Ultra 5W-20
1. Just to be different
2. because you can
3. To have an oil that Ferrari is purported to use, that flies in the face of all others that use M1. also,
4. To help sales! Ultra is kind of a dud, and you can help reverse that (is at not many Walmarts.)
and 5. Because, despite the name, it is a really, really good oil. Pennzoil's best!
As to quality of the oil, M1 is involved so hey nothing i can say about Pennzoil that can make it compete there right
Yes, Capa, that 3-way UOA was nice. I got good info from all three as I was very interested in the FF as well as the M1v.Ultra. That Honda FiT 1.5 4cyl is pretty easy on oil with grandma behind the wheel. Either one of those oils could easily go 15,000 with that driver in that car. With my lead foot, probably not.
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Originally Posted By: partspro
Sorry to tell you but the MIR is here to stay. Pretty much all of the oil vendors at all of the parts store participate in this program. Walmart is the exception. I personally hate MIR's if I were king my first action would be to ban them.
Our corporate office has had lots of negative feedback from store team members and customers about MIR's but the oil vendors pretty much dictate the program. We try to alleviate the situation by printing a special extra receipt for the rebate and attach it to the rebate form. It's pretty easy to fill out the form and mail it. The oil companies are pretty good about sending the rebates, we have zero problems with the process.
Even without the rebate, the oil is still cheaper than regular.
We also changed the way additional quarts were sold. Lots of vehicles require more than 5 quarts. In the past, additional quarts were billed at full retail, we now bill additional quarts at a discounted price IF they are purchased at the same time.
From a business standpoint, MIRs make sense because the companies know that only a small percentage of people actually claim the rebate.
Sorry to tell you but the MIR is here to stay. Pretty much all of the oil vendors at all of the parts store participate in this program. Walmart is the exception. I personally hate MIR's if I were king my first action would be to ban them.
Our corporate office has had lots of negative feedback from store team members and customers about MIR's but the oil vendors pretty much dictate the program. We try to alleviate the situation by printing a special extra receipt for the rebate and attach it to the rebate form. It's pretty easy to fill out the form and mail it. The oil companies are pretty good about sending the rebates, we have zero problems with the process.
Even without the rebate, the oil is still cheaper than regular.
We also changed the way additional quarts were sold. Lots of vehicles require more than 5 quarts. In the past, additional quarts were billed at full retail, we now bill additional quarts at a discounted price IF they are purchased at the same time.
From a business standpoint, MIRs make sense because the companies know that only a small percentage of people actually claim the rebate.
I wish we had MIRs here like you guys get down south. Sure, they can be a pain in the behind, especially if it's only for a tiny amount. Rebates up here are as rare as hen's teeth.
45ACP you said:
"
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45ACP said:I am aware the SM was a good oil and the SN got CAStrated by CAStrol but i dont think the SN is a "bad" oil now like the Toyota stuff is.
And by BAD i mean "Does not shear down to a 10-weight, as we keep reading on here that 20-weight oils DONT do. Yet, CATERHAM's favorite oil does."
Originally Posted By: Capa
Caterham, how about a nice comparison between the Ultra 5W-20 and Mobil 0W-20.
That's easy, don't buy any synthetic 5W-20 including PU unless you can get it on sale for the price of a dino. The reason is, 5w20 conventionals are pretty good. If you want to upgrade to synthetic oil then buy a 0W-20 and get the advantage of the higher VI.
Caterham, how about a nice comparison between the Ultra 5W-20 and Mobil 0W-20.
That's easy, don't buy any synthetic 5W-20 including PU unless you can get it on sale for the price of a dino. The reason is, 5w20 conventionals are pretty good. If you want to upgrade to synthetic oil then buy a 0W-20 and get the advantage of the higher VI.
I know that you are a hardcore VI fan. What benefits do a higher VI give? I was under the impression that one benefit was that VI help to make an oil more shear resistant. I've noticed that Toyta's VI is off the charts and yet it shears easily. Why?
An oil's viscosity index is a measure of how much the oil's viscosity changes with temperature between 40C and 100C.
Obviously you want the highest VI possible for a number of reasons but mainly because all oil is too heavy on start-up where most engine wear occurs.
So an oil with a high VI is lighter on start-up and therefore closer to a more optimal operating viscosity at all times during the warming up period.
Naturally high VI oil are expensive but today the polymer VI improvers that are added to virtually all multi-grade oils to raise their VIs have made great strides in their ability not to break-up (shear) excessively during a long service interval.
I like the Toyota 0W-20 for it's high levels of AW additives and because it is the lightest oil on start-up you can buy. The advantages are less wear, more power, better engine response when cold, less concern about using high rev's in a cold engine and minimized warm up time.
The Toyota oil does shear a bit in service but stabilizes very quickly. Most importantly it maintains most of it's high VI in service and if the operating viscosity (hot) is adequate then there isn't an OTC oil that's better.
Also due to largely to it's ultra high VI it is an excellent oil for blending purposes. If the viscosity at operating temp's is lighter than you like simply add a small amount of something heavier. For example, adding just a pint of Mobil 1 0W-40 (to a 4qt sump) will give you a heavier 0W-20 (HTHSV of about 2.75cP) while retaining a VI of still over 210. This oil would still be lighter on start-up than anything else available with the possible exception of the Idemitsu 0W-20.
Obviously you want the highest VI possible for a number of reasons but mainly because all oil is too heavy on start-up where most engine wear occurs.
So an oil with a high VI is lighter on start-up and therefore closer to a more optimal operating viscosity at all times during the warming up period.
Naturally high VI oil are expensive but today the polymer VI improvers that are added to virtually all multi-grade oils to raise their VIs have made great strides in their ability not to break-up (shear) excessively during a long service interval.
I like the Toyota 0W-20 for it's high levels of AW additives and because it is the lightest oil on start-up you can buy. The advantages are less wear, more power, better engine response when cold, less concern about using high rev's in a cold engine and minimized warm up time.
The Toyota oil does shear a bit in service but stabilizes very quickly. Most importantly it maintains most of it's high VI in service and if the operating viscosity (hot) is adequate then there isn't an OTC oil that's better.
Also due to largely to it's ultra high VI it is an excellent oil for blending purposes. If the viscosity at operating temp's is lighter than you like simply add a small amount of something heavier. For example, adding just a pint of Mobil 1 0W-40 (to a 4qt sump) will give you a heavier 0W-20 (HTHSV of about 2.75cP) while retaining a VI of still over 210. This oil would still be lighter on start-up than anything else available with the possible exception of the Idemitsu 0W-20.
Caterham, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. It seems that for you the VI is the most important number. Dont you think that an oil is a blend of many chemistries that all play a part in helping to lubricate, clean, protect and cool? I don't understand how the VI could therefore be the most important attribute? In another thread you pointed out that Mobil's 10w30 was pathetic because of its low VI---146. Of course, all of us are aware of your love for Toyota's 0W-20 with its very high VI.
Here is a quote:
Viscosity Index Improvers
"As a lubricant basestock is subjected to increasing temperatures it tends to lose its viscosity. In other words, it thins out. This leads to decreased engine protection and a higher likelihood of metal to metal contact. Therefore, if this viscosity loss can be minimized, the probability of unnecessary engine wear will be reduced. This is where viscosity index (VI) improvers (sometimes called viscosity modifiers) come in.
VI improvers are polymers that expand and contract with changes in temperature. At low temperatures they are very compact and affect the viscosity of a lubricant very little. But, at high temperatures these polymers "explode" into much larger long-chain polymers which significantly increase the viscosity of their host lubricant. So, as the basestock loses viscosity with increases in temperature, VI improvers negate that viscosity drop by increasing their size.
The higher the molecular weight of the polymers used, the better the power of "thickening" within the lubricant. Unfortunately, an increase in molecular weight also leads to an inherent instability of the polymers themselves. They become much more prone to shearing within an engine. As these polymers are sheared back to lower molecular weight molecules, their effectiveness as a VI improver decreases.
Unfortunately, because petroleum basestocks are so prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures, high molecular weight polymers must be used. Since these polymers are more prone to shearing than lower molecular weight polymers, petroleum oils tend to shear back very quickly. In other words, they lose their ability to maintain their viscosity at high temperatures.
Synthetic basestocks, on the other hand, are much less prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures. Therefore, lower molecular weight polymers may be used as VI improvers. These polymers are less prone to shearing, so they are effective for a much longer period of time than the VI improvers used in petroleum oils. In other words, synthetic oils do not quickly lose their ability to maintain viscosity at high temperatures as petroleum oils do.
In fact, some synthetic basestocks are so stable at high temperatures they need NO VI improvers at all. Obviously, these basestocks will maintain their high temperature viscosities for a very long time since there are no VI improvers to break down."
http://motoroilbible.com/motor-oil-bible-first-chapter.php
I don't know how old and accurate this is but it raises a couple of points.
Here is a quote:
Viscosity Index Improvers
"As a lubricant basestock is subjected to increasing temperatures it tends to lose its viscosity. In other words, it thins out. This leads to decreased engine protection and a higher likelihood of metal to metal contact. Therefore, if this viscosity loss can be minimized, the probability of unnecessary engine wear will be reduced. This is where viscosity index (VI) improvers (sometimes called viscosity modifiers) come in.
VI improvers are polymers that expand and contract with changes in temperature. At low temperatures they are very compact and affect the viscosity of a lubricant very little. But, at high temperatures these polymers "explode" into much larger long-chain polymers which significantly increase the viscosity of their host lubricant. So, as the basestock loses viscosity with increases in temperature, VI improvers negate that viscosity drop by increasing their size.
The higher the molecular weight of the polymers used, the better the power of "thickening" within the lubricant. Unfortunately, an increase in molecular weight also leads to an inherent instability of the polymers themselves. They become much more prone to shearing within an engine. As these polymers are sheared back to lower molecular weight molecules, their effectiveness as a VI improver decreases.
Unfortunately, because petroleum basestocks are so prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures, high molecular weight polymers must be used. Since these polymers are more prone to shearing than lower molecular weight polymers, petroleum oils tend to shear back very quickly. In other words, they lose their ability to maintain their viscosity at high temperatures.
Synthetic basestocks, on the other hand, are much less prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures. Therefore, lower molecular weight polymers may be used as VI improvers. These polymers are less prone to shearing, so they are effective for a much longer period of time than the VI improvers used in petroleum oils. In other words, synthetic oils do not quickly lose their ability to maintain viscosity at high temperatures as petroleum oils do.
In fact, some synthetic basestocks are so stable at high temperatures they need NO VI improvers at all. Obviously, these basestocks will maintain their high temperature viscosities for a very long time since there are no VI improvers to break down."
http://motoroilbible.com/motor-oil-bible-first-chapter.php
I don't know how old and accurate this is but it raises a couple of points.
Originally Posted By: Capa
Caterham, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. It seems that for you the VI is the most important number.
The single most important attribute of an oil is viscosity and the most important viscosity specification of an oil is it's HTHSV rating. This tells you how thick or thin the oil will be at operating temperature.
The 2nd most important viscosity spec' is the oil's VI since this will tell you how thick the oil will be on start-up when the oil is cold.
Once you have those basic elements sorted then you can talk about an oils base oil chemistry and types of AW additives, detergents, etc that make up the total formulation.
Caterham, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. It seems that for you the VI is the most important number.
The single most important attribute of an oil is viscosity and the most important viscosity specification of an oil is it's HTHSV rating. This tells you how thick or thin the oil will be at operating temperature.
The 2nd most important viscosity spec' is the oil's VI since this will tell you how thick the oil will be on start-up when the oil is cold.
Once you have those basic elements sorted then you can talk about an oils base oil chemistry and types of AW additives, detergents, etc that make up the total formulation.
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