5w-20; Ford 4.6L engines; UOA testing

Originally Posted By: JLTD

Guess I need to run the Amsoil OE I just bought for MUCH longer than 5000 miles! Make it 10k at least....and sample and leave it in.


If you do a lot of highway miles.... you might be good for 20k
 
Updated UOA for my 2007 Grand Marquis ...

Again we see that inexpensive oil is good oil. This most recent update is more Rural King conventional lube in 5w-20. Cost me a whopping $1.59/qrt.
As I vary one input, I hold others constant. Currently trying ST 5w-20 dino in the 07MGM now. So for now, 10k miles will be the OFCI mantra. I want to also try some 5w-30 dino for comparative purposes. In the future, I will probably extend the OCIs, but don't want to vary more than one input at a time.


The UOA for the 05 unit is pending; car was wrecked and is being repaired (it's at 258k; will pull a UOA at 260k).

Code


veh ID (model yr) 07 05 07 05 07Base 05Base

Brand RK RK Peak RK RK Peak

type conv conv syn conv conv syn

grade 5w-20 5w-20 5w-20 5w-20 5w-20 5w-20

filter TG TG FU FU TG TG

Oil miles 10k 10k 10k 10k 10k

Veh miles 120k 100k 240k 90k 230k

make up oil 2.0 1.5 2.0 1.2 2.4

UOA svc Wix pndg Blst Blst Blst Blst





Al 2 3 5 3 3

Cr 1 0 0 1 0

Fe 8 7 6 10 6

Cu 1 0 3 1 5

Pb 1 0 4 0 0

Tn 1 0 0 0 0

Moly 42 69 54 37 65

Ni 1 0 1 0 0

Mang 0 0 0 0 0

Silver 0 0 0 0 0

Ti 0 0 1 0 0

Potas 1 5 0 2 1

Boron 14 63 15 2 43

Si 11 9 12 14 10

Sodium 5 10 12 4 14

Calcium 2260 1921 2571 2013 1942

Magn 23 13 11 15 20

Phos 689 679 681 612 615

Zinc 830 744 839 707 686

Barium 0 0 0 0 0







Sus V @ 210 53.5 54.7 51.8 54.9

cSt V @ 100 C 8.6 8.34 8.68 7.82 8.73

FP 420 395 415 435

Fuel
Antifreeze 0 0 0 0 0

Water 0 0 0 0 0

Insol .2 .1 .2 .3

TBN 3.3
 
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...and still more verification that OEM intervals are very conservative. I am certain the are allowing for thise owners that forget or don't pay attention at all.
 
The more I read and listen. I realize that (most) everything we have been taught is not true. Even history is being re-written. Depressing......
 
Originally Posted by Onetor
The more I read and listen. I realize that (most) everything we have been taught is not true. Even history is being re-written. Depressing......

Let's not prepare to jump off a cliff here ...
grin.gif


I think much of what we were told as kids (for my generation at least; I'm in my 50s) is that frequent oil/filter changes were good. Knowing and seeing what I have of much older vehicles (from 1950s to early 1970s) there was some truth to that mantra. If you didn't OFCI often, you'd get sludge build up from poor combustion control and lower ability of lubes to handle stuff with anti-agglomerates and detergents. Frequent was good back then.

This does not translate well today's vehicles and lubes; not stuff made in the last couple of decades at least. Modern combustion controls (ECMs, fuel injection, etc) and good quality lubes (even inexpensive ones like the RK I use), all show a propensity to really do a great job. Everything you were taught may well have been true at some point, but today's (and even yesterday's) equipment and lubricants and filters do a great job.

The things to glean from my UOAs are thus:
1) normal OEM OCIs are typically grossly under-rated; it's a default practice to protect the OEM warranty risks that costs them nothing
2) normal products can easily go well past the OEM limits; typically 2x is a safe factor I've seen in most cases; more certainly possible with proper data tracking
3) even extended applications of moderate distance show no benefits from premium products
4) wear rates don't change much overall; whatever your engine does for wear, is what it's going to do for wear. Only abuse or neglect will cause major shifts in wear
5) most engines can last FAR past where most folks will drive them (excluding true mechanical issues due to manufacturing defects, etc)
 
dnewton, I'm curious how much of your data is DI , I agree and I run 7500+ mile runs on my MPFi engines, but do you have enough data specific with DI fuel dilution to point to the same thing, or is it all new territory.
 
The DI stuff is not totally "new", but I don't have a lot of data yet. I can make anecdotal observations; there are generalities that are appearing. But I've not focused on these DI engines yet, so I haven't run my true statistical analysis.

The concern with DI is almost exclusively the issue of fuel dilution, and perhaps a side topic of soot loading. Wear metals generally are not showing a vastly different trend; most DI engines still wear fairly well. A good example would be the first gen 3.5L EB engines; they seem to wear decently despite the over fuel loading. Certainly at some point the fuel would be an overwhelming concern. But OEM OCI durations don't seem to bring any major fears into fruition.
 
dnewton3; Any thoughts on using dino oil for a 0w 20 application? Is there some fear mongering going on here?
 
Depends ...

0w-20 is spec'd for some newer cars; that would infer they'd be under warranty. If under warranty, I generally advised to follow the OEM specs, as fiscally painful it might be to buy an expensive lube like that.

Once out of warranty, then experimentation will lead one to the right conclusion. Is dino 5w-20 a good substitute for 0w-20? In some situations that would be a resounding yes. In others, it may not be. UOAs and PCs would be the right path here.
 
I think you are really right about this dn3.

Oils blended by Warren Distribution are just as capable as any other big name oil. And they can go for a long long long time has well.

I used to run Castrol gold bottle in my Nissan Altima VQ and or Pennzoil Ultra the real Ultra... While great oils for sure.. And given the VQ motor propensity to shear oil viscosity a fair amount... Definitely not a bad choice for running either of those products.

However for awhile now I have been running "lower" tower oils in my car. Mobil Super, Quaker State HM and now Peak high mileage 5w30... Just no need in the $30 per 5 qt container oil.. pay half that and just keep on rolling
smile.gif
 
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Here are two UOAs from our cars at home. These are both 4.6L MGM cars; one an '05 and the other an '07, both identically equipped. My wife and I both drive nearly identical routes to work; about 32 miles each way and we only diverge in the last mile (she goes east and I go west). Because she occasionally works from home, I even drive her car to balance out the miles. One was run on dino oil; the other car was run on synthetic.

Tell me, if you can, which sample is the syn and which the dino oil? Which is a brand-name lube and which a house brand? Tell me, if you think you can discern from the data, how many miles did I run each lube; did I run both the same amount, or one of them half of the other? How many miles are on the cars; are they similar or is there a large disparity in accumulated miles? What filters did I run? Did I "over-run" the OEM recommended O/FCI? Did I run the filters for a longer or shorter duration than the lube? Which used more make-up oil, or were they they same? It's OK to guess, but that's not very definitive. If you believe you know, then state WHY you feel your answer is right; what data proves your assertion correct?

Obviously there is a method to my madness here. Most of you know how I like to test the boundaries and shatter myths. I'm trying to get some of you oil bigots to quit staring at the bottle label, and rather look at the results. Quit focusing on VOAs and brand names, and pay attention to the data you pay for in UOAs. What goes into a bottle is not nearly as important as what comes out of the crankcase.

I'll be on vacation the next few days, away from the computer. I'll let you all discuss it and I will return this weekend to tell you which is which, and edit the fields to give the detailed info.



Html:


UOA sample # A B

Brand RK Peak

type dino syn

grade 5w-20 5w-20

filter TG TG

Oil miles 10k 10k

Veh miles 90k 230k

make up oil 1.2 2.4





Blackstone Data

w/ macro analysis

Univ std

Avg dev

@ 5.2k



Al 3 3 4 1.1

Cr 1 0 1 .5

Fe 10 6 15 9.5

Cu 1 5 5 2.9

Pb 0 0 2 .3

Tn 0 0

Moly 37 65

Ni 0 0

Mang 0 0

Silver 0 0

Ti 0 0

Potas 2 1

Boron 2 43

Si 14 10

Sodium 4 14

Calcium 2013 1942

Magn 15 20

Phos 612 615

Zinc 707 686

Barium 0 0







Sus V @ 210 51.8 54.9

cSt V @ 100 C 7.82 8.73

FP 415 435

Fuel
Antifreeze 0 0

Water 0 0

Insol .2 .3

TBN

TAN
@dnewton3 I know this is an old thread and I hate to bring it back from the dead... but. I noticed your 90k mile Grand Marquis needed 1.2 quarts of makeup oil in a 10k run. Is that the actual amount of oil the car consumes in that time? Reason I ask (unrelated to the wear data) is my 2007 Grand Marquis with 88k miles uses 1/4 quart or so in 5,000 miles. Just wondering if that's normal for these engines to consume a bit.
 
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