40 Is The New 30?

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Originally Posted By: dwendt44
What really bites is that the working poor often don't have a choice as to vehicle choice or mileage.
They end up with what's available or what they can afford to buy used.


I don't agree. Maybe the used car market is different here in Northern Alabama, but I can open the paper and see a whole array of choices. Lots of fuel efficient smaller cars and lots of larger gas-guzzlers for about the same price - well within the reach of the working poor.

There is absolutely a vehicle and fuel economy choice!

thanks,
ben
 
Originally Posted By: Win
What really jerks my chain is seeing these pictures on television of all these cars jamming the highways because they live 10 - 20 even
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30 miles or more from where they work.


I live 25 miles from my office. Why? Because all the houses that are 5 to 10 miles away cost twice as much as my house here in the country. Oh yeah, plus I have a yard as well as peace and quiet.

Sure, I spend more on gas. But since I'm saving $1100 a month on my house payment living here in the sticks, I can easily afford to buy a boatload of gas, even if it hits $6 a gallon and I'm only getting 19 MPG out of my Tundra.

later,
b
 
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I also doesn't help the "live close to work" situation with the fact that many people change jobs every 5 years and realtors want 6% of your wealth every time you move. Gas is cheaper.
 
Some thoughts, in no particular order:

1. Back in 1982 or so, I remember my old man buying us (a family of four) a Honda Accord. Poor us, it even came with a 5 speed manual transmission. But don't shed any tears for Jett Rink and his clan. We got along just fine in that, if I remember correctly. The Accord has grown to the point that our old Accord is probably a little smaller than the Civic is now. So I'm not buying that a family of four (or even 5) can't fit in a Civic. If not (and you aren't on an NFL or NBA roster), then I suggest SlimFast or Nutrisystem. According to fueleconomy.gov, the 2008 Civic is rated as 26 city / 34 hwy. That's not bad.

2. These higher mileage standards are very doable. Particularly if the clean diesel engines so common in Europe were over here. Hey Ford Motor Company! How about bringing over that Ford Focus you sell in Europe? It gets 50 mpg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_(International)#Mk_2_.282004_-_Present.29
Furthermore, the interior of that Focus puts the one you sell over here to shame.

3. So your the kind of guy who just really likes driving a vehicle that gets poor fuel mileage, perhaps as a political statement? No worries, my friend. There's plenty of old pickups and SUVs out there which I'm sure you can rack up 300,000+ miles on. Any motorist who wants to drive them for many moons will have that opportunity.

4. Me, I'm a thrifty guy. I just buy used vehicles, anyway. My 18 year old BMW E30 is getting 27 mpg, not too bad! If you want to save money, just hang onto an older car that you really like to drive. That's what I say.

5. I also don't particularly love sending an increasing portion of my hard earned money to a bunch of nutcases in the Middle East. The less cash I have to send their way , the better, I say. Although I'm not planning on buying any cars soon, I probably will in the next 5 years. If I can get an array of vehicle choices rated at 40mpg, I'll welcome testing them and deciding on one.
 
CAFE reflects the inept leadership that is plaguing our political system right now. The government should let the true price of oil guide fuel prices and consumer decision making. Let fuel prices pay for ancillary costs like roads, macro efforts to stabilize prices (like foreign intervention), or the cost of environmental cleanup. The free market system will work just fine without this overtly arbitrary manipulation.

The 70s and 80s was a disaster with automakers guessing at what ratio to build wimpy cars, v-8 cars, and trucks to meet real demand while at the same time complying with CAFE. No one won.
 
Originally Posted By: Geoff
CAFE reflects the inept leadership that is plaguing our political system right now. The government should let the true price of oil guide fuel prices and consumer decision making. Let fuel prices pay for ancillary costs like roads, macro efforts to stabilize prices (like foreign intervention), or the cost of environmental cleanup. The free market system will work just fine without this overtly arbitrary manipulation.

The 70s and 80s was a disaster with automakers guessing at what ratio to build wimpy cars, v-8 cars, and trucks to meet real demand while at the same time complying with CAFE. No one won.


We all won. CAFE requirements forced the mfrs to learn how to design and build efficient engines.
 
I'd say the mfrs knew how to design and build efficient cars at the time. Ford and GM held large market shares in Europe. Although the US divisions started to import European made designs, they still lost huge market share (permanently) to foreign mfrs that were used to building cars with lower fuel consumption. The US endured many recessions for many reasons, but the auto industry was definitely a factor.

My opinion is that since fuel prices have risen relative to CAFE, US makers see this as real this time around and are building more efficient and more interesting smaller cars.
 
The issue is multifaceted as folks have alluded to.

In no particular order, other than what pops into my head
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1. Gas has been relatively cheap in the US for years, for a number of reasons. Lower fuel taxes, a strong dollar, etc, have largely kept fuel prices down.

2. The typical American likes space, large cars, large homes, large yards. There are exceptions in places like NYC, but even there, most folks would like to have a larger apartment.

3. CAFE treated a symptom, but not the cause. The push for higher CAFE averages simply moved how the cause manifested itself. Trucks had a lower target (and I believe at some point, NO target.) So many vehicles were classified as light trucks. Most minivans and even the PT cruiser to name a few are classified as light trucks, subject to different fuel economy standards compared to cars.

4. Many folks are trapped, financially in what they own. So if they bought a Durango with 60 month financing, and they are 24 months into the note, unless they made a big down payment, they are probably upside down, and can't get out of what they own. Or they bought with a HELOC, and now their home is dropping in value, so their personal piggy bank is empty. It wasn't real money, but the obligation to pay is real, and being felt in our economy today.

So while the big three learned to make more fuel efficient cars, that's not what the typical American wants.

My family is fortunate that we can afford to own two fuel efficient sedans for the work commutes, but still have the minivan for those times when we all will travel together.

Many folks do not have the luxury to do this for many reasons.

There is no reason domestic car makers cannot make more fuel efficient vehicles, based on European technologies already in use. However, for the most part, it's been demonstrated that the American consumer doesn't want those cars.

There have been a few exceptions. However, I think of how the Ford Contour failed here, while it is a huge success in Europe as the Mondeo. Basically the same car, but a much different sales story here, compared with Europe.

I don't think Saturn or Cadillac enjoyed much success with their first Opel based vehicles either. I believe the L200/L300 (IIRC) were Opel based, and never did well here. Ditto for the Catera.

There have been successes as well. I think the Ford Focus is largely a success, but I don't know how profitable it has been for Ford. Also, Ford has not brought the European re-designs here, again IIRC. So Ford soldiers on with what is largely the first generation Focus.

I haven't been able to find figures, so I can't tell if Ford Focus sales are doing better or worse. However, my ample gut leads me to believe that it's not the sales hit it once was.

Speaking of Ford, they also have Mazda to draw from in terms of engineering technology. The Mazda 3 is a success, relatively speaking for Mazda, so that technology could/should find it's way into a new Focus for American consumers.

In North America, thats one way to make the cost of bringing smaller, less profitable cars to our market, by spreading out engineering and tooling costs across several models and markets.

However, all of this only addresses the supply side, the car makers. If consumers here in the US still want large vehicles, then it will not matter much how good the small, more fuel efficient vehicles are, they will not sell.

I like small cars, yet I also realize I'm in the minority here in the US.
 
XS650, it wasn't CAFE that forced mfrs to build efficient cars and engines back in the early 80s, it was the high gas prices and competition from the japanese. CAFE became moot once gas prices went through the roof and the public demand matched CAFE requirements. Before that, mfrs practiced creative marketing and pricing to meet CAFE requirements.
 
Javacontour,I dont agree with alot of people. But agree with your post 100%. American market is a tricky one, not the smartest or always the best, but the Market truely favors the past. Note, how the remake Mustangs and Chargers sell, The Challenger is too be a hit even if it gets 3 gal to the mile. Its what they want and buy.
 
One thing that stood out in when I was on vacation in Europe (Greece) is that they actually know how to drive over there. It seems like here, as long as you prove you can do a three point turn, stop on red, go on green, you can get a license.

I was thinking about this as I was watching the girfriend's average mpg of 13.1 on her Murano as she stood on the gas right up to the last second before braking for a light that had been red. I get 24mpg under the same conditions in her car and I get where I'm going just as fast. She managed to bring my TL's average of 27 combined down to 16. Not sure where I was going with this lol.
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
One thing that stood out in when I was on vacation in Europe (Greece) is that they actually know how to drive over there. It seems like here, as long as you prove you can do a three point turn, stop on red, go on green, you can get a license.

I was thinking about this as I was watching the girfriend's average mpg of 13.1 on her Murano as she stood on the gas right up to the last second before braking for a light that had been red. I get 24mpg under the same conditions in her car and I get where I'm going just as fast. She managed to bring my TL's average of 27 combined down to 16. Not sure where I was going with this lol.


Sounds like your girlfriend would be a great 1/4 mile driver for that tricked out GN! Light weight driver plus foot mashed to the floor - bet ya get another .2 tenths out of the car
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Originally Posted By: javacontour

There have been a few exceptions. However, I think of how the Ford Contour failed here, while it is a huge success in Europe as the Mondeo. Basically the same car, but a much different sales story here, compared with Europe.

I like small cars, yet I also realize I'm in the minority here in the US.


Like you Java I enjoy smaller cars but larger vehicles such as my F-150 are still important for my work.

I still have the 1996 Ford Contour with the 2.0L 4 cyl with the 5 speed manual transmission and wider factory aluminum wheels and tires that I purchased new in 12/95. It's a fun to drive car that's actually built well and handles really well in stock form, as long as you have the 5 speed manual transmission and wider wheels. I first drove the Mondeo in the UK in 1994 and was really impressed that the US version was so similar to the UK version. Again this is if you got the manual transmission and wider wheels and tires as the UK and European cars had.

Alas, the US versions began to be decontented and cheapened by 1997. Soon it became nothing but a rental car with an auto transmission. It died shortly after that.

Ford never really supported or advertised this car. The US version with the 4 cyl auto transmission and narrow skinny tires bore no resemblence to the Mondeo with the same engine but manual transmission and wider wheels and tires. The US version did sport a really good suspension "slightly modified" for preceived American tastes of that time period, through '96 MY anyway.

It'll be interesting because the vast majority of fun to drive European and Japanese cars use manual transmissions
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. Will Americans be willing to drive small econo boxes that perform best with manual transmissions? Or say the heck with it and drive larger engined vehicles with auto's that perform better?

The markets should decide what we drive, not the government.

Whimsey
 
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