3mp's 7k mile results

Motorbike · Apr 25, 2004

I certainly wish more persons with the STLE CLS credentials that are not intertwined in any way with motor oil products and additives sales would post here at BITOG .I have become friends with a couple of fellows that are so knowledgable and it's great fun to converse with them and learn about the actual types and given names of VI modifiers and the likes yet they will not come here and post and gave me some pretty good reasons for not

Until I see more input to the contrare my conclusion of this test is already drawn . A service fill of the Mobil at it's approximate 4.00 per quart beats the Amsoil at approximately 6.00 per quart " approximately 13 bucks more per fill " in price vs performance in drain intervals of up to around 7500 miles then dump it all and change the filter type real world service .

The minor wear metals differences would be of no consequence over the life of this engine in my opinion until it begins using oil. Then there is higher viscosity Mobils available or conventional's to help with that .

Synthetics are great but at some point in the engines life if owned long enough there comes a time to relagate them back to conventional to maintain a cost vs performance attitude when the piston rings start allowing blowby to kill the expensive synlube prematurely and or to consume unreasonable amounts per interval.....thats my take anyway

[ April 26, 2004, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

Mamala Bay · Apr 25, 2004

Think a good deal would be the Mobil 1 Truck and Suv 5-40. Bought 2 cases on sale for $4.00. Think Mobil's formula has caught up with Amsoil by looking at the test results. Like they say it depends on the engine and driving habits, certain oil will perform better in different engines.

TooSlick · Apr 25, 2004

I would encourage folks to run this comparison test in their own engines, with an oil analysis after 7000-10,000 miles. I think you'll find that Amsoil provides better engine protection and decreased oil consumption in most cases, along with better subjective engine performance in terms of NVH. If you run Amsoil for 15k-25k miles, these wear rates will certainly go up a bit. However, the average wear rates with an oil change interval of 15k-25k miles will still be comparable to lower quality oils using very short drain intervals. That's why Amsoil feels comfortable recommending 25,000 mile/1 year change intervals for this formulation, with a filter change midway through, using their Super Duty filters ....

The one thing that has changed is that Brian isn't accumulating miles at the rate he did last year, which is going to have some effect on oil degradation. Once combustion by-products and moisture get into the crankcase, the oil will degrade even if the engine isn't being run. Of course these oxidation/nitration reactions do occur much faster at oil temps of 200F then they do at 75F, but they still occur. This is one of the main reasons why Amsoil explicitly sets a one year time limit for all their formulations....

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics

buster · Apr 26, 2004

quote:

wish more persons with the STLE CLS credentials

I'd like to see this too. We have some incredible people on here as it is, but more would never hurt.

I personally don't believe small differences in wear , as seen above, will result in longer engine life. % changes in viscosity and TBN retention are every bit as important. By now, people should realize that a large majority of oils will do just fine under the right conditions and then some, depeding on the engine/oil combo.

Not to mention if your oil is thickening over a fairly moderate drain /to long drain, I don't care how good your wear numbers could be, your engine is getting dirty and will not perform well. I'd take the small % ppm differences in wear instead. This is why RL is appealing due to it's stability.

[ April 26, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

gudmund · Apr 26, 2004

TooSlick"...Brian isn't accumulating miles at the rate he did last year, which is going to have some effect on oil degradation." So what your saying is, Amsoil can't handle the 9 - NINE - extra days longer that it has been in the pan in comparison to the Mobil 1??? 9days-give them a break (each7000miles Mobil 1/132days - Amsoil/141days) note: they both have had 2qts of fresh make up oil in same amount of miles. Sounds like a pretty even match up too me so far!!

TooSlick"...running very long drain intervals in V-8 engines is somewhat problematic, due to the # of fuel you burn." sounds like an even greater oil test to me having already put Mobil 1 though 18000miles of V-8 thashing which tells me Mobil 1 should hold up even better in my 4 cyl(maybe twice the 18000 being I have half the cyl's and get over 42mpg=not much fuel burned). I think it's time to quit making excuses for the Amsoil and just wait and see how it does in the long run. You know, at least the 18000mile long run!! And if the Amsoil filter is the 'required' filter for any oil test with Amsoil than I would figure the Moss-Magnasen Act could be used against Amsoil in that they should be including it with their oil when purchased!!

jbas · Apr 26, 2004

What's with the animosity? Everyone wins if the Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, et al hang in there (or outperform) with the mass retailed/marketed M1. You know, more price competition, more R & D, better future oil. I love spirtied competition as much as the next guy, but this seems like Boston v. New York. I wish they'd test Mag 1/WalMart Syn and get 10,000 miles out of it. Put a little price pressure on the "names!"

jthorner · Apr 26, 2004

Where is the rest of the test posted?

Someone said something about not being allowed to post links here? That makes no sense to me. I guess that I will no longer refer people on other forums to www.bobistheoilguy.com

John

[ April 27, 2004, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

gudmund · Apr 26, 2004

What's the animosity? were there excuses from the Mobil 1 crowd when it didn't look like it was going to do well in it's test? no just a bunch of Amsoil "experts" stating why it is bad oil. But now with the shoe on the other foot, check out the excuses and whining - animosity you bet! lets just get on with letting the test run it's course and see what happens!!! for the every day consumer it is being run as fair as can be.

Motorbike · Apr 26, 2004

You know, whether or not Amsoil or Mobil is purchased Exxon/Mobil makes some money

Amsoil has a new formulation that's not currently being used in this test . I think it's a better oil than the test oil here .

gudmund · Apr 26, 2004

neptune.spacebears.com

gudmund · Apr 26, 2004

we're going to need about 20 to 30 people to give up their vehicles for testing all these oils that these guys "should" have tested! these guys can only test one oil at a time and time takes time when it comes to driving and running out the miles needed for a test along with $money$ for all the oil and samples tested. Anyone willing to step up and start their own website testing oils as these guys have??? we already have a Amsoil dealer wanting to "$$SELL$$" you the oil for your own test-sounds like a deal(for him anyway).

Bill · Apr 26, 2004

Gee, I just feel the love flowing here...

If I didn't know any better, I would have to assume someone's kid got run over by an Amsoil dealer...

Not the Autorx Frank · Apr 26, 2004

ummm... its just motor oil.... and the test is not done yet so just chill....

gudmund · Apr 26, 2004

single-never married- NO kids(that I know of)

TooSlick · Apr 26, 2004

Gudmund,

My apologies ...I seemed to remember that Brian put on over 18,000 miles in less than a year the last time around. So I had the incorrect preception that he wasn't driving as much this year
If the actual time frame is as close as you stated, you can't do any better than that.

I have no problem with the way Brian is conducting this test and I've never claimed that Mobil 1 was a bad oil by any means. I will say that Amsoil is doing significantly better at this point in time with regards to valvetrain and cylinder, ie iron wear. Iron is the metal that is usually present in the greatest concentration and it is the wear metal that tracks most closely with the # of miles on the sample. So it's the most useful in comparing the wear protection afforded by various oils under high loads. Excessive bearing wear should NEVER be an issue with any engine, provided the oil being used is of the correct viscosity and you aren't sucking in lots of dirt. I would not make much of the reduction in copper/tin wear in this Amsoil run, since these metals dissipate over time in the LS-1 engine. If you were to go back and run Mobil 1 again, I'm sure you'd see these levels drop. If/when Brian runs Redline, I think you'll see a small spike in lead/copper levels at first and then those will level off. I expect iron wear with Redline to be comparable to the Amsoil 5w30...

As for the drain intervals in other applications, it is instructive to note that 6-7 quarts of makeup oil were added during the 18,000 mile run on Mobil 1. Of course most of this makeup oil was due to sampling and not oil burning. However this fresh oil did extend the drain interval far beyond what it would be otherwise. In my opinion it would be a better test if samples were taken out the dipstick tube every 5000 miles and the # of makeup oil was kept to an absolute minimum. This would more realistically represent the way most folks are going to use these products. Without makeup oil it is difficult to run even a top tier synthetic further than 10k-12k miles in a V-8 engine, due to the total amount of fuel that is burned. If you look at German V-8 engines running long drain intervals in Europe, you'll find most of them have 10-12 quart sumps. That is really what is needed to extend drain intervals with domestic V-8 engines.

Certainly Mobil 1 is a high TBN oil - capable of extended drain use - and there are many thousands of folks in Europe using it this way. I'd like to see Mobil start recommending drain intervals of say 12,000 miles/1 year with Mobil 1 - even for cars under warranty. However, you are not going to see that happen, since they are at the mercy of their corporate lawyers and bean counters. Certainly the chemical engineers who formulate the stuff know its' fully capable of drains beyond 7500 miles ....

Again, my apologies for any misunderstanding ....

Ted K.
Dixie Synthetics

3 Mad Ponchos · Apr 27, 2004

FWIW, though we don't see eye to eye on everything, there is no bad blood between Ted and I. Let's not take "sides" on a simple oil study like this.

The Mobil 1 did in fact make it 18k with life still in it, but it did so in large part because of the make-up oil from the samples. This is a limitation of the study and I make no bones about it. If you check out the Mobil 1 results page, you'll see my efforts to calculate Mobil 1's practical range in a car that uses no oil, which I figure to be about 10,000 miles. Now, most cars do use *some* oil -- my 2002 Subaru goes through a bit over a quart every 5,000 miles -- so the practical change interval in that case would be extended somewhat so long as you remembered to keep it topped up.

If your sole interest is, "how long can I run it?" then Ted's advice to test every 5,000 miles is good. It's a plan I intend to implement with the Subaru at some juncture, just to get some comparative data to go with the study. But, my study is about more than that; I'm curious about the behavior of oil throughout its service life, so I will continue to pull samples every 1,000 miles over Ted's good-hearted objections.

Cheers, 3MP

gudmund · Apr 27, 2004

the Mobil 1 test needs to re-read as this Amsoil test is going on for comparison checks. They both have had 2qts of oil makeup in 7000miles. Mobil 1 went 132days/Amsoil went 141days (9day diff)in 7000miles along with these days being from November to March/April-same appox time of year-Winter into Spring. Same oil filter brand being used along with a V-8 that has been know to be hard on oil(piston slap)which makes it in my opinon to be even a better comparison test putting the oil thur an even harder run. Granted there are veriables that can not be keep equal-just the difference in vehicle mileage from it being older now I'm sure has a effect on the oil and will probaly effect the next brand used miles futher down the road if this test goes on. I think there guys are doing a very good job of running a fair comparison between oils so far and there is no way they could do what everybody else wants or thinks would be a better and yet keep everybody happy at the same time. I say keep doing the test as it is and will be giving more money if they go onto another brand of oil next.

Bio-T · Apr 27, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by jthorner:
Where is the rest of the test posted?

Someone said something about not being allowed to post links here? That makes no sense to me. I guess that I will no longer refer people on other forums to www.bobistheoilguy.com

John

John,
You can post all the links you want on here. Just no links to a sales page. Also I corrected your link above.

Thanks

[ April 27, 2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

buster · Apr 27, 2004

I think Amsoil's 5w30 oil is a slightly better oil then Mobil 1 5w-3 in terms of wear. However, Amsoil has been known to thicken out of grade in the past. Recently, Amsoil has been staying in grade VERY well. I think ASL has been reformulated since the oil being used in this test and currently could be a better oil.

We are comparing a non-api oil to a fully api oil so there will be some differences. Mobil's SS formulation is more of a 3 prong approach, while Amsoil relies on more ZDP, although not much more.

Mobil 1 R / S2k would be an apples to apples comparison as far as I'm concerned and I do think M1R is an outstanding oil.

Too many on here constantly base an oils wear on the lousy wearing LS1.

From Mobil's website, a little testamonial to the anti-Mobil 1 crowd:

quote:

Patrick Veltri, Male, Engineer, Ashburn, Virginia
Every year in January and March, I travel to Florida to work as an SCCA pit marshal for the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona and the Mobil 1 12 Hours at Sebring endurance races. As a pit marshal, my responsibilities include keeping a written log of everything that the pit crew does to the car whenever they pit. Consequently, I am familiar with the equipment and products that the racing team use. My experience has shown me that the oil of choice in the world of endurance racing is Mobil 1 . If these endurance teams can use Mobil 1 in their racecars at the track at over 100 mph for up to 24 hours straight, well then, I think it’s good enough for me."

[ April 27, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

TexasAggie · Apr 28, 2004

Reading through this intriguing post for the first time...and thankful that I got here late as it seems this study has been going on for some time... It's like getting to see the final period of a two year basketball game. I can definitely see that there are a few folks wearing their jerseys and pulling for their team. I might as well say that I've chosen my team as well...as I believe Mobil 1 to be the best product on the market. Based on U.S. market share data, it would appear that the rest of America agrees with me.

I have a couple of questions to get caught up...
1) What kind of oil filter is being used for the test? Is it a high efficiency filter? Same brand for both tests?
2) For TooSlick - You have made three statements that I'd like you to clarify: a) "That's why Amsoil feels comfortable recommending 25,000 mile/1 year change intervals for this formulation,..." b) "Based on the ten years of oil analysis testing I've done, I'd recommend 15,000 miles/1 year, with a filter change and topoff halfway through, using the high efficiency Amsoil filters..." and c) Without makeup oil it is difficult to run even a top tier synthetic further than 10k-12k miles in a V-8 engine, due to the total amount of fuel that is burned.

I hope I haven't taken any of these comments out of context, but they seem inconsistent. Just how many miles should Joe J. Consumer feel comfortable putting on this oil with no sampling? And if you tell me that it varies by engine, environment, use (light...extreme), then how can Amsoil make a blanket recommendation of 25k/1yr?

3mp's 7k mile results

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