30w in a 20w engine (2GR-FKS)

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
A 0W-20 weight oil will destroy the engine. A 5W-20 will cause excessive, early wear. A 10W30 is OK but a 10W-40 would be ideal. A 20W50 will give you the best protection from wear especially in New Hampshire.

+1 ......
under high stress ; high speed and increased temperature conditions .....
that a car/engine is mechanically capable of .....
where generally continental Europeans exploit fully its potentials ......
but probably not quite the case with Bitog'ers in general.... under-utilizing ........

Edit:spelling

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: steve20
Shannow thanks for the historical perspective on 1960's weights and how they compare to modern oils. I had always wondered why 20-weights were in owners manuals. Back in the day (as my teenage sons likes to put it) I just headed blindly to the 10-40s & 20-50s---like all guys who knew what they were doing, used. (we didn't know any better)
Steve


You still don't.

How about the 1960 landmark paper that determined the vast majority of engine wear occurs at start up?

I thought there was far more too startup wear than simply lack of oil flowing.


What did that paper tell you about 30 or 20 ?

It doesn't occur "at start up" it occurs in the first minutes after start-up, mostly in the period where the oil is flowing freely, not the miniscule period of time with no oil pressure (which viscosity doesn't really change as long as the W grade selected is appropriate)

But you knew that, didn't you ?

There's a whole lot going on there, and of course simply lacking fully warmed oil flow for a few seconds doesn't kill an engine. It's more complex than that. Have there been any studies on preoilers?

Motor oil is supposed to function ideally at operating temp. That's got to be the primary reason for startup wear. If anything is going to reduce startup wear, it's got to be a block heater and maybe a mechanism to circulate the coolant.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Or oil pan heaters which I use on some vehicles.

 

[AEHaas]

Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
Summary - The rate of wear is much higher within 20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. The first 20 minutes result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. This is in the test engine under WOT. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs in the start up period and that this period is much longer than most people believe).

aehaas

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
Summary - The rate of wear is much higher within 20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. The first 20 minutes result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. This is in the test engine under WOT. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs in the start up period and that this period is much longer than most people believe).

aehaas


And the percentage of people that go WOT after startup is?

 

[AEHaas]

The way I used this information was to select a motor oil that was the appropriate viscosity when fully warmed up. But after shut down the oil thickened the least. I also use minimal throttle until the engine is FULLY warmed up - about 20 minutes. This may also help minimize cavitation wear.

aehaas

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: steve20
Shannow thanks for the historical perspective on 1960's weights and how they compare to modern oils. I had always wondered why 20-weights were in owners manuals. Back in the day (as my teenage sons likes to put it) I just headed blindly to the 10-40s & 20-50s---like all guys who knew what they were doing, used. (we didn't know any better)
Steve


You still don't.

How about the 1960 landmark paper that determined the vast majority of engine wear occurs at start up?


What did that paper tell you about 30 or 20 ?

It doesn't occur "at start up" it occurs in the first minutes after start-up, mostly in the period where the oil is flowing freely, not the miniscule period of time with no oil pressure (which viscosity doesn't really change as long as the W grade selected is appropriate)

But you knew that, didn't you ?


Just like you knew that thinner oils tend to flow better at start up and before operating temps and carry away the byproducts of cold combustion faster. I assume you know that since you use a 5W-30, which isn't that far off from a synthetic 0/5W-20...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
since you use a 5W-30, which isn't that far off from a synthetic 0/5W-20...


I think Shannow uses Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4 which is a Euro grade 30 weight (not a ILSAC 30 grade) and so is closer to a 40 grade oil

Edge 5W30 A3/B4
KV40 = 71.8 cSt, KV100= 12.0 cSt, HTHS = 3.6cP

M1 0W40 FS
KV40= 70.8 cSt, KV100 = 12.9 cSt, HTHS = 3.6cP

M1 5W30
KV40= 61.7 cSt, KV100 = 11.0 cSt, HTHS = 3.1 cP

M1 5W20
KV40= 49.8 cSt, KV100= 8.9 cSt, HTHS = 2.75 cP

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
since you use a 5W-30, which isn't that far off from a synthetic 0/5W-20...


I think Shannow uses Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4 which is a Euro grade 30 weight (not a ILSAC 30 grade) and so is closer to a 40 grade oil

Edge 5W30 A3/B4
KV40 = 71.8 cSt, KV100= 12.0 cSt, HTHS = 3.6cP

M1 0W40 FS
KV40= 70.8 cSt, KV100 = 12.9 cSt, HTHS = 3.6cP

M1 5W30
KV40= 61.7 cSt, KV100 = 11.0 cSt, HTHS = 3.1 cP

M1 5W20
KV40= 49.8 cSt, KV100= 8.9 cSt, HTHS = 2.75 cP



Have you ever been to New Hampshire?

Do you really think any of this matters? My brother had over a meter of snow there...

FFS, this isn't the outback, but I suspect most Aussies don't really live in extreme heat conditions either...

 

[SR5]

Sorry mate, I made no comment about the weather or climate, and still do not.

My focus was on the comment that Shannow's running a 30 grade oil "which isn't that far off from a synthetic 0/5W-20..."

I respectfully disagree, and believe it's better to say that it isn't that far off a synthetic 0/5W-40, I stand by that comment, and make no comment on climate.

What does FFS stand for ?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
Summary - The rate of wear is much higher within 20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. The first 20 minutes result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. This is in the test engine under WOT.


Yes, that's consistent with other papers.

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
(Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs in the start up period and that this period is much longer than most people believe).

aehaas


It's not the flow/viscosity that's doing the wearing under those conditions, so your statement that this is justification is flawed.

The Sequence IV testing is with fully established flow, on a relatively cold engine, that's purposely held at "warmup" conditions, in the region where the viscosity has dropped markedly over start-up, and is not at regular operating temperatures.

If your premise was correct, then low vis oils would show a markedly better Sequence IV result...and they don't...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Just like you knew that thinner oils tend to flow better at start up and before operating temps and carry away the byproducts of cold combustion faster.


Got a (cherry picked pseudoscience even) link to something that deomonstrates that behaviour ???

 

[ChrisD46]

Your stating this tongue in cheek - right ??
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
A 0W-20 weight oil will destroy the engine. A 5W-20 will cause excessive, early wear. A 10W30 is OK but a 10W-40 would be ideal. A 20W50 will give you the best protection from wear especially in New Hampshire.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Have you ever been to New Hampshire?

Do you really think any of this matters? My brother had over a meter of snow there...

FFS, this isn't the outback, but I suspect most Aussies don't really live in extreme heat conditions either...


Will the 20 OR the 30 provide greater start-up wear protection for your brother in all that snow ?

(Given that for argument's sake, both are 0W, which appears to be appropriate for the region).

For that matter, what if it was a 0W50, what would you suggest is likely to happen in that instance with start-up wear ?

As to Aussies, outback, and not suspecting, what's your definition of extreme heat ?

Sydney is a pretty decent population centre, and while it isn't outback, had a fair but of high tmperatures this year

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/month/nsw/sydney.shtml

47C is pretty warm, but only a 1 off.

20W20 with its (really a 30) 2.9 HTHS would be about as good as an ILSAC 30 there

 

[userfriendly]

In short, referring an engine oil by its SAE grade is rapidly becoming obsolete.
For my applications, I pick a HTHS between 3.4 and 4.5 and an appropriate W grade for the ambient.
Done!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
In short, referring an engine oil by its SAE grade is rapidly becoming obsolete.
For my applications, I pick a HTHS between 3.4 and 4.5 and an appropriate W grade for the ambient.
Done!


I like the cut of your jib !!!

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
In short, referring an engine oil by its SAE grade is rapidly becoming obsolete.
For my applications, I pick a HTHS between 3.4 and 4.5 and an appropriate W grade for the ambient.
Done!

I agree, these viscosity grades are a coarse tool. Especially if one is just above the cut off and the other just below, they may be very similar oils, yet people consider them worlds apart because they are in different J300 grades.

Enough HTHS for your expected hot and high load protection, and the correct W rating for your expected cold start situation.

As you said, job done !! And ..... Wait for it......Relax !

 

[userfriendly]

Credit goes to where credit is due... XWHTHS is a Shannow concept.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Credit goes to where credit is due... XWHTHS is a Shannow concept.

Yes, credit to Shannow on that idea.

A trivial modification I would suggest is XW(HTHS x10), then it would be similar to the old grades for the general consumer.

Using the HTHS values above:

Edge 5W30 A3/B4 becomes Edge 5W36

M1 0W40 FS becomes M1 0W36

M1 5W30 becomes M1 5W31

M1 5W20 becomes M1 5W28 (rounding up)

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
Summary - The rate of wear is much higher within 20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. The first 20 minutes result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. This is in the test engine under WOT. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs in the start up period and that this period is much longer than most people believe).

aehaas


And the percentage of people that go WOT after startup is?


Now it all makes sense why my vehicles over the years have done well on oils that are not quite in the OEM recommended camp. Like the 10w30 conventional I use in my 2006 Cadillac instead of the M1 5w30 recommended by the OEM. We never WOT our vehicles. But given the WOT in testing on a cold engine, I could imagine the increased wear at startup. When I decide to start using WOT engine warm up regimens, I will consider the issue and look at cold flows a little closer.