3.6 pentastar as bad as it seems ???

[BackwoodsAL]

I the Jeep clubs, with hundreds of examples, I've not heard that or anything like it even once with the Pentastar.

Here's one of the links to a Jeep forum where I read that some people talked about cam hardness issues. I don't know whether that's true. or not.

3.6 Cam Self destruction

I realize there have been an increasing amount of these cam-related posts circulating the forums and FB groups. I am starting this thread to share my experiences and insights from the many posts I have been following. I started experiencing the misfire issues at around 24k miles on a 2020 with...

www.jeepgladiatorforum.com

 

[OVERKILL]

Here's one of the links to a Jeep forum where I read that some people talked about cam hardness issues. I don't know whether that's true. or not.

3.6 Cam Self destruction

I realize there have been an increasing amount of these cam-related posts circulating the forums and FB groups. I am starting this thread to share my experiences and insights from the many posts I have been following. I started experiencing the misfire issues at around 24k miles on a 2020 with...

www.jeepgladiatorforum.com

It's generally the lifters (on the HEMI) that take out the cam, or the roller follower on the Pentastar. There has been the odd instance of the lobe experiencing some pitting, likely from improper heat treatment, but that's definitely not the primary failure mode.

Both engines, just like with many other brands, use SADI camshafts, so the cams are just surface hardened. Once that has been breached, things fail rather quickly.

GM and Ford are both having the same lifter issue, and, Honda has had similar problems:

 

[BackwoodsAL]

It's generally the lifters (on the HEMI) that take out the cam, or the roller follower on the Pentastar. There has been the odd instance of the lobe experiencing some pitting, likely from improper heat treatment, but that's definitely not the primary failure mode.

Both engines, just like with many other brands, use SADI camshafts, so the cams are just surface hardened. Once that has been breached, things fail rather quickly.

GM and Ford are both having the same lifter issue, and, Honda has had similar problems:
View attachment 183431

Yeah, I've heard of the Ford Godzilla 7.3L having this issue on the Ford forums. They talk about the cam lobes and lifter rollers "delaminating".

 

[Timmastertech]

Honest answer from my point of view is for as many Pentastars come through my shop (68191349ac is my 4th most popular selling oil filter across all car lines) I have had one bottom end failure, 2 failed camshafts/rockers, one oil pump for a failed oil pump solenoid, and one that the customer opted for engine replacement over repair of a leaking exhaust valve due to time (work vehicle). They arent bad engines if you maintain them. The recurring theme I see in the ones I have opened has been that they belonged to customers that did not have us do their maintenance so unknown what oils and intervals were run.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yeah, I've heard of the Ford Godzilla 7.3L having this issue on the Ford forums. They talk about the cam lobes and lifter rollers "delaminating".

Yup, not an issue we had as recently as even the early 2000's with pushrod engines. It's an artifact of offshoring I suspect.

 

[LouC]

Problem I've heard about with Chrysler engines (including the HEMI) is the steel the cam is made of is soft. I don't know if that's what is causing the cam failures, or maybe it's because of quality control issues with the lifter roller needle bearings. Seems like the valvetrain is the achilles heel. The same can be said for the GM Ecotec engines in recent years with AFM lifters. Heard of them sticking and wiping cams, a lot, in as little as a few hundred miles.

The issue with the Hemi is the bearings for the roller lifters fail & that wears the cam. From everything I have read it seems that this surfaced after they went to the VVT design in 2009 or so. Earlier Hemis did not seem to have widespread cam or lifter problems. The latest that I heard was that parts changes in 2019 have corrected this issue. I have a 2007 Hemi with 123,000 on it no lifter or cam problems. I bought it used and have put about 100k miles on it. I’ve done 2 oil analyses in it & both came back with low wear metals.

 

[LouC]

The same folks bragging up engines like this are the same that brag up the youtube mechanics.
Most know absolutely nothing about what a correct design should look like.
All automobile engines are in this day and age made as inexpensive as possible, many corners are cut, some how some of them will last and many won't.
Don't most jeeps now use a CVT?

No
ZF 8 spd in Grand & Wrangler
ZF 9 spd in Cherokee, Compass & Renegade

 

[OVERKILL]

The issue with the Hemi is the bearings for the roller lifters fail & that wears the cam. From everything I have read it seems that this surfaced after they went to the VVT design in 2009 or so. Earlier Hemis did not seem to have widespread cam or lifter problems. The latest that I heard was that parts changes in 2019 have corrected this issue. I have a 2007 Hemi with 123,000 on it no lifter or cam problems. I bought it used and have put about 100k miles on it. I’ve done 2 oil analyses in it & both came back with low wear metals.

It's the pin according to @TeamZero, that the rollers roll against (same issue as with the Pentastar rollers actually...) that's improperly heat treated and eventually a ditch starts to form where the surface has been breached and this goes on for a while until eventually one of the rollers gets stuck in the ditch, then they all pile-up and the roller stops rolling on the camshaft, and that takes the lobe out. I believe both GM and Ford have the same problem (though GM has the added problem of their AFM lifters crapping the bed).

And yes, I think it emerged around the same time as VCT, I assume they must have changed lifter suppliers, because then we ended up with like 7 lifter revisions of them chasing the issue, where it is apparently "fixed" now, and the new lifters use much larger rollers (in the bearing, not the actual roller that rides the cam).

 

[eljefino]

I know there was and engine with that design, maybe the 2.7? I remember writing a few estimates where I had to replace an engine for Mechanical Breakdown Insurance and there were very few donors because most of them had suffered the fate of an internal coolant leak directly into the oil. IIRC this was on the Magnums but I haven't written an estimate on one of those in quite a while.

IIRC those had a timing chain driven water pump, so if the pump failed, it would dump coolant in the oil and/ or take the timing chain along for the ride.

 

[RAR]

Go ahead and get it if you like, Original Poster.

We have 5 Pentastars in our family group of cars: 3 Jeep Wranglers (2 JKs and my JL), my sister-in-law with her Town & Country, and now my niece with her Grand Caravan. None of them tick. They all operate just fine. No one is “running away” from them because someone on the internet said they were bad.

I will give some pearl clutchers the vapors with the other two engines I have in my other cars: a 5.7 V8 Hemi (with the tick!) in my Charger and the infamous N14 Mini 1.6 turbo 4 cylinder. Yow! I should be walking everywhere if you believe the stories!

 

[hemioiler]

It's the pin according to @TeamZero, that the rollers roll against (same issue as with the Pentastar rollers actually...) that's improperly heat treated and eventually a ditch starts to form where the surface has been breached and this goes on for a while until eventually one of the rollers gets stuck in the ditch, then they all pile-up and the roller stops rolling on the camshaft, and that takes the lobe out. I believe both GM and Ford have the same problem (though GM has the added problem of their AFM lifters crapping the bed).

And yes, I think it emerged around the same time as VCT, I assume they must have changed lifter suppliers, because then we ended up with like 7 lifter revisions of them chasing the issue, where it is apparently "fixed" now, and the new lifters use much larger rollers (in the bearing, not the actual roller that rides the cam).

Genuine question: Who is TeamZero, is he an FCA engineer or someone in the corporation that knows first hand what is going on? There is so much misinformation going around the net with these hemi failures it would be nice to hear first hand with authority what the problem is.

 

[sloinker]

To the OP. Yes, there are some known, recurring issues with some of the Pentastar engines. If proper and regular maintenance is performed this lessens the issue. If you should develop the tick, don't delay. Buy some hand tools and a few rockers and repair it before camshaft damage. Do it yourself, plenty of tutorials online. I have family members that swore by Ford diesels that took many thousands of dollars to repair a factory inadequacy. They still swear by them. Go figure. I remember changing air cooled VW motors every few years back in the day. I could dress a long block and R&R those engines in about 6-7 hours. I hated them. If you are thinking Japanese, they have more and more issues just like the Korean cars. Many Subaru lovers out there with praise. Just as many that want to punch you when you mention that marque. Whatever you do get. Treat it gently, do the maintenance and it will probably reward you.

 

[Gawardawg]

Thanks for the reply’s.

 

[t1snwrbrdr12]

Ours in our fleet of 600ish are starting to need oil pumps as often as we’ve been doing oil cooler / filter housings the past couple years.

I think it’s mainly bc we ride out oil changes till our computer system says it’s due AND the cars oil life monitor says it’s due. If both don’t agree, we are not supposed to change the oil. Enough of our road service techs and the drivers know how to reset the oil change warnings so they’re not getting adequate maintenance.

Many of them I get in have many oil pressure and solenoid faults and a leaking oil cooler, and almost no oil in the sump (down about 4-5 quarts in a 6 quart engine). I typically fix the leak(s) and change the oil and ship it, see if the oil pressure faults recur and hope that being so low on oil didn’t fry the solenoids or pump.

 

[OVERKILL]

Genuine question: Who is TeamZero, is he an FCA engineer or someone in the corporation that knows first hand what is going on? There is so much misinformation going around the net with these hemi failures it would be nice to hear first hand with authority what the problem is.

Dealer tech who has disassembled a huge pile of failed lifters to try and figure out what failed. He posted some pictures of the pin, with the ditch in it, a while back.

 

[FordFETruck]

About a year and a half ago my neighbors bought a 2017 Dodge grand caravan with a 3.6, it's got about 73,000 miles on it now. I am the one that maintains it for them. I had to put a thermostat in it a few weeks ago because it got stuck open a time or two. Other than that, it doesn't use any oil and it runs great. I have definitely worked on a lot worse engines.

 

[tnt_motorsports]

About a year and a half ago my neighbors bought a 2017 Dodge grand caravan with a 3.6, it's got about 73,000 miles on it now. I am the one that maintains it for them. I had to put a thermostat in it a few weeks ago because it got stuck open a time or two. Other than that, it doesn't use any oil and it runs great. I have definitely worked on a lot worse engines.

Same here on our 2014. A t-stat and general maintenance at 91K miles.

I might do the PCV and the oil filter housing in the next several months as PM.

Just my $0.02

 

[FordFETruck]

Same here on our 2014. A t-stat and general maintenance at 91K miles.

I might do the PCV and the oil filter housing in the next several months as PM.

Just my $0.02

I found it odd when I checked the van out, the upper hose was getting warm as the engine was warming up. Upon pulling the thermostat out, there was a shiny spot on the side of the wax motor like it got stuck there a time or two. It was functioning properly when I took it out. It wound up throwing a coolant temp code, said it took too long to reach operating temperature or something like that. Easy replacement though.

 

[tnt_motorsports]

I found it odd when I checked the van out, the upper hose was getting warm as the engine was warming up. Upon pulling the thermostat out, there was a shiny spot on the side of the wax motor like it got stuck there a time or two. It was functioning properly when I took it out. It wound up throwing a coolant temp code, said it took too long to reach operating temperature or something like that. Easy replacement though.

Same here on the code. It is an easy fix and minimal coolant loss.

Just my $0.02

 

[FordFETruck]

Same here on the code. It is an easy fix and minimal coolant loss.

Just my $0.02

I wound up draining the radiator so it could get some fresh coolant into the system since it's getting closer to 7 years old now, but yeah I could have changed that thing without even draining the radiator.