2WD Trucks and Wet Traction - a losing battle?

[SwampSurvivor]

It's generally the nature of the beast due to weight distribution. Every RWD car I've ever driven did this whether it was a Crown Vic, Lincoln, or pickup truck. They were also always the vehicles stuck in the snow.

I'm surprised at how well my Grand Marquis with weight in the trunk does in the snow. Everyone told me how terrible RWD and V8 was but I am impressed.

They are surprisingly well balanced. I always thought they were a heavy front weight bias, but when I do my spring/fall tire changeouts, I put the jack under the frame in the middle of the car and can pick up both sides. My Jeep is very front heavy. If I don't put the jack ALL the way forward - like right behind where the front LCA mounts to the "frame", it will actually nose dive and pick the back up.

 

[edyvw]

I'm surprised at how well my Grand Marquis with weight in the trunk does in the snow. Everyone told me how terrible RWD and V8 was but I am impressed.

They are surprisingly well balanced. I always thought they were a heavy front weight bias, but when I do my spring/fall tire changeouts, I put the jack under the frame in the middle of the car and can pick up both sides. My Jeep is very front heavy. If I don't put the jack ALL the way forward - like right behind where the front LCA mounts to the "frame", it will actually nose dive and pick the back up.

That is why they are astonishingly bad in snow, and somehow most JEEP owners realize that only when they end up in the ditch.

 

[OVERKILL]

That is why they are astonishingly bad in snow, and somehow most JEEP owners realize that only when they end up in the ditch.

The WK was 55/45, the WKII is 54/46. Even the XJ isn't that bad apparently, being around the same as the WKII, bigger issue is the super short wheelbase.

Yes, the X5 is closer to 50/50 (49.7/50.3).

The MB GLC is 55/45, same as the WK.

The Audi Q5 is 54/46, same as the WKII.

 

[edyvw]

The WK was 55/45, the WKII is 54/46. Even the XJ isn't that bad apparently, being around the same as the WKII, bigger issue is the super short wheelbase.

Yes, the X5 is closer to 50/50 (49.7/50.3).

The MB GLC is 55/45, same as the WK.

The Audi Q5 is 54/46, same as the WKII.

I would say there is more to it than just balance. It is generally bad vehicle in snow. Balance, short wheelbase etc. However, most owners of it don't understand that off-road capabilities do not translate automatically to good snow performance.
And both MB and Audi are FAR better than JEEP in snow, bcs. there are other factors.

 

[buster]

Subarus are tanks in the snow. Low center of gravity and 60/40 AWD works well with good tires. I wanted to try my truck in the snow this year but we had no winter with zero snow accumulation. Does well on the beach though.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

The WK was 55/45, the WKII is 54/46. Even the XJ isn't that bad apparently, being around the same as the WKII, bigger issue is the super short wheelbase.

Yes, the X5 is closer to 50/50 (49.7/50.3).

The MB GLC is 55/45, same as the WK.

The Audi Q5 is 54/46, same as the WKII.

Mine might not be the most accurate example. I have a VERY heavy winch bumper made of 3/8 and 1/2 inch steel plate hanging off the front. I don't know the weight, but it's heavy enough that 2 people will struggle to lift and move it. And a winch. And there's lots of metal added to the "frame" up front to try to keep the steering box attached.

And as I discovered after the last offroad excursion, the steering box is starting to detach itself again.

I have so much added weight in the front that I have 6'' lift springs with 2'' spacers and it's only measuring 4'' higher than stock. Then I wonder why I'm doing wheel bearings yearly.

That is why they are astonishingly bad in snow, and somehow most JEEP owners realize that only when they end up in the ditch.

Mine will NOT move in the snow in 2wd. Period, end of story. Even with snow tires. People would ask why I would drive the Focus when I had that instead of the Cherokee. Because its awful in the snow. A friend of mine had a 2wd one and it was comically bad in the snow.

 

[edyvw]

Mine might not be the most accurate example. I have a VERY heavy winch bumper made of 3/8 and 1/2 inch steel plate hanging off the front. I don't know the weight, but it's heavy enough that 2 people will struggle to lift and move it. And a winch. And there's lots of metal added to the "frame" up front to try to keep the steering box attached.

And as I discovered after the last offroad excursion, the steering box is starting to detach itself again.

I have so much added weight in the front that I have 6'' lift springs with 2'' spacers and it's only measuring 4'' higher than stock. Then I wonder why I'm doing wheel bearings yearly.



Mine will NOT move in the snow in 2wd. Period, end of story. Even with snow tires. People would ask why I would drive the Focus when I had that instead of the Cherokee. Because its awful in the snow. A friend of mine had a 2wd one and it was comically bad in the snow.

???

My friend had a lifter Wrngler and somehow snapped the front right axle in deep snow during Bombgenesis in 2019. I went thru with Tiguan. Not sure if was it a poor job with the lift or just quality.
I know their 4WD can do a lot, but I do wonder sometimes about certain things.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

???

My friend had a lifter Wrngler and somehow snapped the front right axle in deep snow during Bombgenesis in 2019. I went thru with Tiguan. Not sure if was it a poor job with the lift or just quality.
I know their 4WD can do a lot, but I do wonder sometimes about certain things.

Common problem on the XJ cherokees. The unibody will break / facture at the steering box. Then it's a constant fight to keep the the thing attached to the vehicle.
As for the axle shaft, I've broken more axle shafts in the snow than anything else. The u-joint axle shafts are very strong for what they are going straight. But when you turn, it stresses the ears. When you're turning and have a lot of wheel speed (snow) the ears will stretch and then you throw caps, things bind and *snap*.

 

[Arc]

Mine is an AWD hemi RAM 2005. I spin tires all the time, I cant even imagine going back to 2wd in a pickup.

 

[Arc]

That is why they are astonishingly bad in snow, and somehow most JEEP owners realize that only when they end up in the ditch.

Most jeep owners are in the ditch because they had to get in there and pull somebody out

 

[OVERKILL]

I would say there is more to it than just balance. It is generally bad vehicle in snow. Balance, short wheelbase etc. However, most owners of it don't understand that off-road capabilities do not translate automatically to good snow performance.
And both MB and Audi are FAR better than JEEP in snow, bcs. there are other factors.

Depends on which Jeep you are talking about, I'd put a WK2 up against the Audi or MB no problem. A Wrangler? No, but there are other factors there, such as weight and short wheelbase. The WK2 and GLC share the same platform.

 

[OVERKILL]

Mine might not be the most accurate example. I have a VERY heavy winch bumper made of 3/8 and 1/2 inch steel plate hanging off the front. I don't know the weight, but it's heavy enough that 2 people will struggle to lift and move it. And a winch. And there's lots of metal added to the "frame" up front to try to keep the steering box attached.

And as I discovered after the last offroad excursion, the steering box is starting to detach itself again.

I have so much added weight in the front that I have 6'' lift springs with 2'' spacers and it's only measuring 4'' higher than stock. Then I wonder why I'm doing wheel bearings yearly.



Mine will NOT move in the snow in 2wd. Period, end of story. Even with snow tires. People would ask why I would drive the Focus when I had that instead of the Cherokee. Because its awful in the snow. A friend of mine had a 2wd one and it was comically bad in the snow.

Yeah, so the weight balance on yours is pretty far removed from a stock XJ then, lol.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Good question. I see you've been reading my webpages on RR.

Skinny tires means skinny wheels, which weigh less. Skinny tires also mean skinny fenders, which also weigh less.

Super Cars? They need big diameter brakes. That means wide, low profile tires - which also happen to have a larger contact patch = more grip.

So skinny tires = less vehicle weight and wider tires = more vehicle performance.

But the real reason I make a big deal out of "wider is better" is that many people would mistakenly buy skinny tires with less load carrying capacity, and those are more likely to fail. So by pointing out that the data says wider tires have better RR, they are more likely to buy larger load carrying capacity tires, which are less likely to fail.

"Super Cars? They need big diameter brakes. That means wide, low profile tires - which also happen to have a larger contact patch = more grip."

What does fitting big brakes under a larger wheel diameter have to do with wheel width? Those things are independent of one another.

So you're saying that unsprung weight affects rolling resistance more than anything else?

 

[justalubetech]

My 2wd S-10 I ran winter tires (non studded) on the rear pretty much all year except in the summer, had alot of steep hills in my town and it would just spin the tires no matter how gently I tried to take off, softer winter tires helped a lot with that and the truck wasn't heavy enough to wear them down much.

 

[justalubetech]

Most jeep owners are in the ditch because they had to get in there and pull somebody out

Nah they way overestimate their snow/ice capabilities, I was rear ended by a guy in a Wrangler while waiting for traffic at a stop sign thinking he was invincible and could still speed in snowy conditions.

Hit me so hard I did a couple 360's into the middle of the intersection. If he hadn't hit me he would have jumped the ditch and sunk it in the lake on the other side of the street lol

 

[edyvw]

Depends on which Jeep you are talking about, I'd put a WK2 up against the Audi or MB no problem. A Wrangler? No, but there are other factors there, such as weight and short wheelbase. The WK2 and GLC share the same platform.

Sorry. when you said WK2, did not see your talking platform. Yeah, that is different. I am talking Wrangler.

 

[edyvw]

Most jeep owners are in the ditch because they had to get in there and pull somebody out

Yeah, not happening.

 

[edyvw]

Nah they way overestimate their snow/ice capabilities, I was rear ended by a guy in a Wrangler while waiting for traffic at a stop sign thinking he was invincible and could still speed in snowy conditions.

Hit me so hard I did a couple 360's into the middle of the intersection. If he hadn't hit me he would have jumped the ditch and sunk it in the lake on the other side of the street lol

When I see Wrangler or any Subaru in the rearview mirror, downshift, and floor it.

 

[UG_Passat]

Most people focus on hydroplaning. However, that doesn’t mean tire is good in rain if it is good in hydroplaning resistance.
I had Kumho Ecsta LX tires that were excellent in hydroplaning resistance, but praying worked better than pressing brake if one wanted to make sudden stop in rainy conditions. I could actually throw rear end on FWD vehicle in wet conditions with that POS tire.

Funny, Never that type of issue with the those tires, even with a stiffer H&R rear sway bar. But then again, I don't drive like a Hooligan in wet weather.

Even in the dry, the suspension geometry can be prone to lift throttle oversteer, even with the best tires racing on in sanctioned parking lot event.

 

[edyvw]

Funny, Never that type of issue with the those tires, even with a stiffer H&R rear sway bar. But then again, I don't drive like a Hooligan in wet weather.

Even in the dry, the suspension geometry can be prone to lift throttle oversteer, even with the best tires racing on in sanctioned parking lot event.

They were junk in the wet. Not sure whether they did something with the compound later. This was 2012/13. Took them off after 15k as 3 out of 4 tires could not be balanced anymore.