2017 Audi A6 2.0T Premium plus AWD

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Imp4
To be clear, no one should ever put an oil into an engine if the oil does not maintain the proper specifications or approvals.
Full stop.

The only thing I'm agreeing with Gokhan on is that one should not use the Lubrizol tool to cross compare across specifications, i.e. VW specs to Dexos, ACEA to API, MB to Dexos, etc......
Full stop.

Again, there are a thousand ways to measure relative performance between industry or manufacturer specifications. The Lubrizol tool is not one of those ways. At least according to Lubrizol it isn't.

Maybe some members here know more about Lubrizol's tool than Lubrizol does. Hey, you never know, right?

Cheers!!!

Lubrizol provides additives to oil manufacturers. They know exactly what each specification consist of.
It provides minimum requirements set up by manufacturers, and that explains a lot!

 

[Imp4]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Lubrizol provides additives to oil manufacturers. They know exactly what each specification consist of.
It provides minimum requirements set up by manufacturers, and that explains a lot!

No, that implies a lot.

It explicitly states to not use the tool to compare across standards. That says a lot.

 

[Trav]

Sorry I don't see how you cant draw a conclusion about the parameters they are showing the spec for. What else are they going to say? This spec is crap and this spec is top of the food chain? That would really open a can of worms!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
What?
Since you are knew at it, VW504.00 supersede VW502.00.

Why are you still running a full-SAPS oil with VW 502.00 but without VW 504.00 in your Volkswagen Tiguan then?

Supersede means discontinued and replaced by -- it doesn't mean VW 504.00 has improved everything over VW 502.00. For example it allows lower TBN. Look at the Afton Specification Handbook for the MB M271 sludge test for the two, which shows higher merit points for VW 502.00, and the Lubrizol chart shows it incorrectly.

Afton Specification Handbook -- September 2019

 

[Imp4]

Originally Posted by Trav
Sorry I don't see how you cant draw a conclusion about the parameters they are showing the spec for. What else are they going to say? This spec is crap and this spec is top of the food chain? That would really open a can of worms!

Well I guess I'd just do what they say which is:
Originally Posted by Lubrizol
NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification, for example, ACEA E6 versus ACEA E7, or API CH-4 versus API CJ-4. This tool has not been expressly designed to show relative performance between specifications


So compare API vs API. ACEA vs ACEA. MB vs MB. Etc....
Is that so hard ?
It seems pretty straightforward to me.

Cheers!!!

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
What?
Since you are knew at it, VW504.00 supersede VW502.00.

Why are you still running a full-SAPS oil with VW 502.00 but without VW 504.00 in your Volkswagen Tiguan then?

Supersede means discontinued and replaced by -- it doesn't mean VW 504.00 has improved everything over VW 502.00. For example it allows lower TBN. Look at the Afton Specification Handbook for the MB M271 sludge test for the two, which shows higher merit points for VW 502.00, and the Lubrizol chart shows it incorrectly.

Afton Specification Handbook -- September 2019



It has to because a mid saps oil with 10+ TBN is impossible. Not to mention who cares because TBN retention is excellent and again, the oil is allowed to go up to double the OCI even though it has less starting TBN. 504 oil stays in the ~3 TBN range for a LONG time and this has been verified by many UOA's.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
It has to because a mid saps oil with 10+ TBN is impossible. Not to mention who cares because TBN retention is excellent and again, the oil is allowed to go up to double the OCI even though it has less starting TBN. 504 oil stays in the ~3 TBN range for a LONG time and this has been verified by many UOA's.

Yes, but he's not running VW 504.00. He is running VW 502.00 despite saying it has been superseded by VW 504.00.

VW specs are certainly highly chaotic and confusing with their lax SAPS requirements, different requirements when two specs are combined, etc. It tells you something when the same engine recommends both mid-SAPS and full-SAPS and both 0W-20 and 5W-40.

I wouldn't worry too much about their specs unless you have a DPF.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Imp4
Originally Posted by Trav
Sorry I don't see how you cant draw a conclusion about the parameters they are showing the spec for. What else are they going to say? This spec is crap and this spec is top of the food chain? That would really open a can of worms!

Well I guess I'd just do what they say which is:
Originally Posted by Lubrizol
NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification, for example, ACEA E6 versus ACEA E7, or API CH-4 versus API CJ-4. This tool has not been expressly designed to show relative performance between specifications


So compare API vs API. ACEA vs ACEA. MB vs MB. Etc....
Is that so hard ?
It seems pretty straightforward to me.

Cheers!!!

Not to me! I never said it was, as I said you can see the minimum performance of different specs and make your own mind up. You don't want to use it for comparing specs don't use it, its that simple.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Imp4
Originally Posted by Lubrizol
NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification, for example, ACEA E6 versus ACEA E7, or API CH-4 versus API CJ-4. This tool has not been expressly designed to show relative performance between specifications

Is Lubrizol on BITOG now?

 

[BucDan]

OP. Take it from another Audi owner. If you can, get Pennzoil platinum Euro 0w-40 if they have it at walmart. Then PP Euro 5w-40. Then Castrol 0w-40. Then Castrol 5w-40. If you want boutique for the American market, then Motul 8100 Xcess or Xclean or Liqui Moly leichtlauf all 3 in 5w-40.

Keep it simple.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Trav
I never said it was, as I said you can see the minimum performance of different specs and make your own mind up.

But how can we compare the performance of different specs if entirely different engine tests are used for them? How does the cam wear in microns in Sequence IVA of ILSAC GF-5 compare to the cam wear in microns in some VW wear test? How does the time in the Volvo oxidation test in API CK-4 compare to the time in some Mercedes - Benz oxidation test? No one knows, and even more importantly no one cares/bothers to know; so, it's better to stop making blanket claims of Euro oils always being better than ILSAC oils or one Euro spec always being better than another Euro spec, as some make here. These claims are false.

All oils these days, ILSAC or Euro, use the latest state-of-the-art additive packs and VIIs, and there are no magic ingredients that are available to, say, VW 504.00 but not GM dexos1. If you want to improve on oil quality, your best bet is to look for an oil with the lowest Noack and a reputed OEM approval such as GM dexos1, MB, or VW, as the Noack for a given CCS viscosity tells you the base-oil quality, which is usually the only remaining degree of freedom when it comes finished-oil quality, as the base-oil quality matters a lot when it comes to engine deposits and OCI length. Just be careful to compare the Noack for the same SAE viscosity grade (more specifically the same CCS viscosity) -- you can't compare the Noack for a 0W-20 to the Noack for a 5W-30 or the Noack for a 5W-30 to the Noack for 10W-30.

Specs only assure minimum performance. Actual performance varies wildly within the same spec depending on the oil brand. It's not unexpected for a premium ILSAC oil -- say, Mobil 1 Extended Performance -- to easily exceed the performance of the strictest Euro-OEM specs.

 

[Trav]

Quote
your best bet is to look for an oil with the lowest Noack and a reputed OEM approval such as GM dexos1, MB, or VW,


What happened to run Supertech 0w20 in the VW?

Quote
It's not unexpected for a premium ILSAC oil -- say, Mobil 1 Extended Performance -- to easily exceed the performance of the strictest Euro-OEM specs.


Sorry but you sound like an Amsoil commercial with that sort of statement. It may meet the spec but didn't bother to prove it and get the approval so we have to take their word for it. It either has approvals or it doesn't.
That enough of this, it is getting kind of pointless.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
What?
Since you are knew at it, VW504.00 supersede VW502.00.

Why are you still running a full-SAPS oil with VW 502.00 but without VW 504.00 in your Volkswagen Tiguan then?

Supersede means discontinued and replaced by -- it doesn't mean VW 504.00 has improved everything over VW 502.00. For example it allows lower TBN. Look at the Afton Specification Handbook for the MB M271 sludge test for the two, which shows higher merit points for VW 502.00, and the Lubrizol chart shows it incorrectly.

Afton Specification Handbook -- September 2019

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
What?
Since you are knew at it, VW504.00 supersede VW502.00.

Why are you still running a full-SAPS oil with VW 502.00 but without VW 504.00 in your Volkswagen Tiguan then?

Supersede means discontinued and replaced by -- it doesn't mean VW 504.00 has improved everything over VW 502.00. For example it allows lower TBN. Look at the Afton Specification Handbook for the MB M271 sludge test for the two, which shows higher merit points for VW 502.00, and the Lubrizol chart shows it incorrectly.

Afton Specification Handbook -- September 2019

What VW has to do with MB M271?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan

Yes, but he's not running VW 504.00. He is running VW 502.00 despite saying it has been superseded by VW 504.00.

VW specs are certainly highly chaotic and confusing with their lax SAPS requirements, different requirements when two specs are combined, etc. It tells you something when the same engine recommends both mid-SAPS and full-SAPS and both 0W-20 and 5W-40.

I wouldn't worry too much about their specs unless you have a DPF.


What are you talking about?
Again, same like with Mobil1 0W40 "FS" you are shooting in dark, and then you are correcting yourself next 3 pages. Worst thing, you are so convinced that you know what you talking about that you are first to jump to give people "advice."
No, this engine does not recommend 0W20 and 5W40. This engine recommends strictly VW 502.00.
Why I do not use VW504.00? Sulfur in gas. Actually I did use Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 (before you ever heard of such oil) and did UOA and it is available somewhere in UOA section. I am not sure how such knowledgable person like you cannot figure out why.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Trav
I never said it was, as I said you can see the minimum performance of different specs and make your own mind up.

But how can we compare the performance of different specs if entirely different engine tests are used for them? How does the cam wear in microns in Sequence IVA of ILSAC GF-5 compare to the cam wear in microns in some VW wear test? How does the time in the Volvo oxidation test in API CK-4 compare to the time in some Mercedes - Benz oxidation test? No one knows, and even more importantly no one cares/bothers to know; so, it's better to stop making blanket claims of Euro oils always being better than ILSAC oils or one Euro spec always being better than another Euro spec, as some make here. These claims are false.

All oils these days, ILSAC or Euro, use the latest state-of-the-art additive packs and VIIs, and there are no magic ingredients that are available to, say, VW 504.00 but not GM dexos1. If you want to improve on oil quality, your best bet is to look for an oil with the lowest Noack and a reputed OEM approval such as GM dexos1, MB, or VW, as the Noack for a given CCS viscosity tells you the base-oil quality, which is usually the only remaining degree of freedom when it comes finished-oil quality, as the base-oil quality matters a lot when it comes to engine deposits and OCI length. Just be careful to compare the Noack for the same SAE viscosity grade (more specifically the same CCS viscosity) -- you can't compare the Noack for a 0W-20 to the Noack for a 5W-30 or the Noack for a 5W-30 to the Noack for 10W-30.

Specs only assure minimum performance. Actual performance varies wildly within the same spec depending on the oil brand. It's not unexpected for a premium ILSAC oil -- say, Mobil 1 Extended Performance -- to easily exceed the performance of the strictest Euro-OEM specs.

Apparently same as Afton uses MB engine to determine VW specification that is developed strictly for VW engines.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Trav
Quote
your best bet is to look for an oil with the lowest Noack and a reputed OEM approval such as GM dexos1, MB, or VW,


What happened to run Supertech 0w20 in the VW?

Quote
It's not unexpected for a premium ILSAC oil -- say, Mobil 1 Extended Performance -- to easily exceed the performance of the strictest Euro-OEM specs.


Sorry but you sound like an Amsoil commercial with that sort of statement. It may meet the spec but didn't bother to prove it and get the approval so we have to take their word for it. It either has approvals or it doesn't.
That enough of this, it is getting kind of pointless.

I am waiting two answers:
1. How many more miles I can make on VW is I use 0W40 insted of ESP 5W30?
2. Supertech?

Though anyone who suggests Supertech in VW should not be ever again taken seriously about anything.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
What VW has to do with MB M271?

Do you homework before you claim to know about Euro oils.

MB M271 test is used in VW 501.00, 502.00, and 504.00. Many Euro OEMs use other OEMs' engine tests in their specs.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Why I do not use VW504.00? Sulfur in gas.

You just said VW 504.00 superseded VW 502.00. Now, you have contradicted that statement.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Apparently same as Afton uses MB engine to determine VW specification that is developed strictly for VW engines.

Afton only publishes specs. It does not make specs. As I said do your homework before you claim to know about Euro oils. OEMs commonly use each other's engine tests in their specs.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Trav
Quote
your best bet is to look for an oil with the lowest Noack and a reputed OEM approval such as GM dexos1, MB, or VW,
What happened to run Supertech 0w20 in the VW?

Super Tech 0W-20 = GM dexos1 Gen 2

Originally Posted by Trav
Quote
It's not unexpected for a premium ILSAC oil -- say, Mobil 1 Extended Performance -- to easily exceed the performance of the strictest Euro-OEM specs.
Sorry but you sound like an Amsoil commercial with that sort of statement. It may meet the spec but didn't bother to prove it and get the approval so we have to take their word for it. It either has approvals or it doesn't.

They don't bother to get them certified for the Euro specs because they are not aimed for the European markets. It costs a fortune to have an oil certified for different specs.

The GM dexos1 Gen 2 Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 and Mobil 1 Annual Protection 0W-20 list 60 - 70% PAO vs. the Mobil 1 ESP x2 0W-20 with Euro specs listing 20 - 30% PAO and 50 - 60% GTL. You can call it the Amsoil syndrome, but I think the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 and Mobil 1 Annual Protection 0W-20 are better oils.

Originally Posted by Trav
That enough of this, it is getting kind of pointless.

Agreed!