2017 Audi A6 2.0T Premium plus AWD

[wemay]

Any of the oils discussed (EDGE 5W40, 0W40 / M1 0W40, ESP 5W30 / VALVOLINE MST / MOTUL XCLEAN, etc.) will see that vehicle into several hundreds of thousands of miles. The splitting of hairs is only a bitog ritual. The members currently jousting being two of the most knowledgeable but also...hairsplitars we have. If that's even a word.

 

[OtisBlkR1]

Gentlemen, not that I'm not enjoying your spirited debate (and learning alot on Euro oil) Thank you! I average 500 on average or less miles per month on my Daily driver, live in Indiana (all 4 seasons) and will likely never go past 5,000 mile OCI and will probably keep this car to 80,000-90,000 miles, sell of and start looking for the car I want to start retirement with. The closest Audi dealership is 90 miles 1 direction, I will as I usually do keep the maintenance up myself, so to rephrase my question do I need to order euro spec German oil, or would you feel generally safe picking up one of the multiple recommended (Walmart available) options discussed ? And if so using my above criteria the best option ?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by OtisBlkR1
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Looks like it calls for VW 502.00 or VW 504.00, according to this:
https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam...ed_Maintenance_Flipbook_Pages_022317.pdf

The M1 ESP 5W-30 that Trav recommended should be just fine, IMO.



Help me learn, the book says 5-40 you & travis agree on the M1 Esp 5-30 ? Can you help me better understand your recommendation? Thanks for looking up the service manual, I've been studying it!


Mobil Germany also recommends the ESP 5w30 as first choice for this engine, 0w30 ESP second and 0w40 FS third. For long OCI 30K (18K miles) they say ESP 5w30.
VW just didn't pull these specs out of their backside, they were introduced to address possible lubrication issues that may arise using non spec oils. For oils in the Mobil program the ESP is the best for this engine according to Mobil themselves.

https://www.mobil.com.de/de-de/reco...fsi_quattro_saloon_185kw_FawEcWSvH/1/b2c

Click on service plan in the page.

I run ESP 5w30 in all my cars except the Viggen 2.3 it gets a HDDO with a short OCI and have no issues whatsoever with cam wear or engine noise.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by OtisBlkR1
Gentlemen, not that I'm not enjoying your spirited debate (and learning alot on Euro oil) Thank you! I average 500 on average or less miles per month on my Daily driver, live in Indiana (all 4 seasons) and will likely never go past 5,000 mile OCI and will probably keep this car to 80,000-90,000 miles, sell of and start looking for the car I want to start retirement with. The closest Audi dealership is 90 miles 1 direction, I will as I usually do keep the maintenance up myself, so to rephrase my question do I need to order euro spec German oil, or would you feel generally safe picking up one of the multiple recommended (Walmart available) options discussed ? And if so using my above criteria the best option ?

They are not mutually exclusive. There are several very good oils available at Walmart that have the European approvals discussed here.

And in regards to grade that is largely irrelevant with these approvals since they specify a minimum HTHS. Other than quibbling about the winter rating (which really only comes into consideration at very low temperatures) there is no significant difference between a 30 and a 40-grade oil since you're just straddling the fence. Some Mercedes-Benz owner's manuals have ceased to recommend a grade and instead just list an approval - which is entirely appropriate and less confusing for the user.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Trav
Mobil Germany also recommends the ESP 5w30 as first choice for this engine, 0w30 ESP second and 0w40 FS third. For long OCI 30K (18K miles) they say ESP 5w30.
VW just didn't pull these specs out of their backside, they were introduced to address possible lubrication issues that may arise using non spec oils. For oils in the Mobil program the ESP is the best for this engine according to Mobil themselves.

https://www.mobil.com.de/de-de/reco...fsi_quattro_saloon_185kw_FawEcWSvH/1/b2c

Click on service plan in the page.

I run ESP 5w30 in all my cars except the Viggen 2.3 it gets a HDDO with a short OCI and have no issues whatsoever with cam wear or engine noise.

According to your link, they also recommend 0W-20 for long OCIs. Fill it with the dexos1 Gen 2 Super Tech 0W-20 and call it a day, and as a bonus you get LSPI protection that you don't with the current Euro oils.

Honestly there is a lot of overthinking here. Audi is recommending anything from 0W-20 to 0W-40 and anything from mid-SAPS to full-SAPS, which means these engines don't really care about oil as long as they are high-quality oils. All major-brand dexos1 Gen 2 oils, especially the 0W-20 grade, are high-quality, and you wouldn't notice a difference in longevity in comparison to using OEM-approved Euro oils.

All this said I would probably not use a full-SAPS oil such as the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 -- 1.34% sulfated ash (SA) -- in direct-injection engines without secondary port injection to keep the intake-valve deposits at bay. A mid-SAPS Euro oil in comparison has 0.8% SA, sometimes even less, and a typical ILSAC oil has 0.8 - 1.0% SA.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
This is the explanation by ExxonMobil of the blending of the M1 FS SM (PAO-based), M1 FS SN (previous formula before some of the Group III+ Visom (GTL precursor) replaced with GTL), and M1 ESP (previous formula with a lower Noack called "Formula"), from left to right. It says on the previous page: "Mobil 1 ‘Ages' builds upon the strength of Mobil 1 0W-40 by incorporating some of the latest formulation advances contained in Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30." So, M1 FS 0W-40 has all the strengths of M1 ESP plus more.

Presentation by ExxonMobil on the introduction of Mobil 1 0W-40 SN to the market

That presentation is now 15-20 years old. Is the information in it still relevant to what's being sold by XOM today?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
That presentation is now 15-20 years old. Is the information in it still relevant to what's being sold by XOM today?

I think so. The latest formulations have replaced most if not all of the Group III+ Visom (GTL precursor) with GTL, but everything else remains similar.

 

[Trav]

Top to bottom 0w20 is the last and its ESP X2 not some swill. 0w20 does not even show up for shorter 15K km OCI.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Trav
Top to bottom 0w20 is the last and its ESP X2 not some swill. 0w20 does not even show up for shorter 15K km OCI.

But it does for 30,000 km OCI. No 0W-20 oil is swill -- you need good base oil to make one.

 

[Trav]

With these specs you cant prove your point. This is swill in comparison to ESP X2 going by these specs.

Supertech 0w20
Meets or exceeds GM Dexos1? Gen 2 specifications for worldwide requirements for all GM automotive engines currently in use, Dexos1? Gen2 supercedes G6094M and GM4718M
Meets API SN, SM, SL and ISLAC GF-5 or GF-4 requirements where a SAE 0W-20 is specified

ESP X2.
This product has the following approvals:

MB-Approval 229.71

Porsche C20

VW 508 00

VW 509 00

GM dexosD Licensed

STJLR.51.5122

STJLR.03.5006

 

[Gokhan]

Trav, the Lubrizol relative performance comparison tool is entirely absurd when you compare different specs. Don't even bother doing that. It can only be used for different versions of the same spec, such as ACEA C3 2016 vs. ACEA C3 2012 or API SN vs. API SM. In fact even then, it could be useless because the engine tests change over the years.

To make my point, I looked at the sludge performance for VW 502.00 vs. VW 504.00. The Lubrizol chart shows VW 504.00 to be better, whereas in reality VW 502.00 requires higher merit points in the MB M271 sludge test if you look at the Afton Specification Handbook. So, the Lubrizol spider charts are useless.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by OtisBlkR1
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Looks like it calls for VW 502.00 or VW 504.00, according to this:
https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam...ed_Maintenance_Flipbook_Pages_022317.pdf

The M1 ESP 5W-30 that Trav recommended should be just fine, IMO.



Help me learn, the book says 5-40 you & travis agree on the M1 Esp 5-30 ? Can you help me better understand your recommendation? Thanks for looking up the service manual, I've been studying it!

I can only guess, but my thinking is that Audi USA is trying to cover their butt against an uneducated consumer who does not bother looking for oils meeting the required VW spec. If such consumer ignores all other advice and just picks up any 5W-40 oil, chances are that oil will be at least decent enough to not cause the engine to fall apart because it will at least have high enough HT/HS viscosity.

For the more educated consumer, as long as you choose an oil that meets the required VW spec, you'll be fine, regardless of SAE grade.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
I did not reach any conclusion, your posts are obvious.

You said I didn't know the difference between the M1 0W-40 and M1 FS 0W-40.

Originally Posted by edyvw
And no, not that discussion I am talking about discussion in Euro forum, where people actually know Euro oils.

You and I were discussing the introduction of the M1 FS 0W-40 in the same thread. I thought you were the Euro-oil expert here.

And that is what you wrote, so I took your word.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Trav, the Lubrizol relative performance comparison tool is entirely absurd when you compare different specs. Don't even bother doing that. It can only be used for different versions of the same spec, such as ACEA C3 2016 vs. ACEA C3 2012 or API SN vs. API SM. In fact even then, it could be useless because the engine tests change over the years.

To make my point, I looked at the sludge performance for VW 502.00 vs. VW 504.00. The Lubrizol chart shows VW 504.00 to be better, whereas in reality VW 502.00 requires higher merit points in the MB M271 sludge test if you look at the Afton Specification Handbook. So, the Lubrizol spider charts are useless.

What?
Since you are knew at it, VW504.00 supersede VW502.00.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Originally Posted by Trav
With these specs you cant prove your point. This is swill in comparison to ESP X2 going by these specs.

Supertech 0w20
Meets or exceeds GM Dexos1? Gen 2 specifications for worldwide requirements for all GM automotive engines currently in use, Dexos1? Gen2 supercedes G6094M and GM4718M
Meets API SN, SM, SL and ISLAC GF-5 or GF-4 requirements where a SAE 0W-20 is specified

ESP X2.
This product has the following approvals:

MB-Approval 229.71

Porsche C20

VW 508 00

VW 509 00

GM dexosD Licensed

STJLR.51.5122

STJLR.03.5006

^^^ Thank you Trav!

 

[Imp4]

So there are very few times on this board where I disagree with Trav and agree with Gokhan all in the same post, but this is one of them.

In multiple instances, Trav has posted pictures of the Lubrizol comparison tool while comparing across industry standards and/or manufacturer standards. All while completely ignoring the statement by Lubrizol immediately below the chart that the tool was not designed to do exactly what he is doing.

Gokhan is calling him on it and Gokhan is correct.

There are a thousand ways to judge relative performance between petroleum standards or products. The takeaway here is that the Lubrizol tool isn't one of those ways if for no other reason than Lubrizol states it as such on the web page.

Cheers!!!

 

[Trav]

The point is that the chart shows what the performance of the oil is relating to specifications required to meet their approval that's all nothing more.
That being said if another spec oil is shown to be lesser or better the chart will also show that. One cannot assume any oil will meet a spec unless it has approvals or at least claims to meet that spec.

To assume an oil eg Supertech 0w20 that has no VW specs that can be used in a VW engine requiring spec oil is risking premature wear. That is all I am saying, Gokhan is not correct making statements like..

Quote
Fill it with the dexos1 Gen 2 Super Tech 0W-20 and call it a day


Is asinine, it carries no specs required for the VW. If the oil is capable or not of meeting those specs would be nothing more than a guess.
The chart IMO is fair to use to compare specs from manufacturers and their properties.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Imp4
So there are very few times on this board where I disagree with Trav and agree with Gokhan all in the same post, but this is one of them.

In multiple instances, Trav has posted pictures of the Lubrizol comparison tool while comparing across industry standards and/or manufacturer standards. All while completely ignoring the statement by Lubrizol immediately below the chart that the tool was not designed to do exactly what he is doing.

Gokhan is calling him on it and Gokhan is correct.

There are a thousand ways to judge relative performance between petroleum standards or products. The takeaway here is that the Lubrizol tool isn't one of those ways if for no other reason than Lubrizol states it as such on the web page.

Cheers!!!

Those charts are best way to compare what are minimum requirements each specification has. Those demands has to be met by oil manufacturers if they want that stamp of approval. Now, it is quite possible that oils exceed those requirements which is usually the case when oil is developed, especially to get approved by those manufacturers. So what Lubrizol provides is minimum requirements API, ACEA, VW etc. set up. The fact that for example Mobil1 0W20 EP does not have MB229.71 approval, means it cannot meet those demands since Mobil1 had to develop completely different oil in order to meet that specification.
So, Mobil1 0W20 EP has API SN+ stamp. Good. It does not have MB229.71, or VW 508.00 or BMW LL-17FE. It is very simple, and this chart explains why that is the case.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Trav
The point is that the chart shows what the performance of the oil is relating to specifications required to meet their approval that's all nothing more.
That being said if another spec oil is shown to be lesser or better the chart will also show that. One cannot assume any oil will meet a spec unless it has approvals or at least claims to meet that spec.

To assume an oil eg Supertech 0w20 that has no VW specs that can be used in a VW engine requiring spec oil is risking premature wear. That is all I am saying, Gokhan is not correct making statements like..

Quote
Fill it with the dexos1 Gen 2 Super Tech 0W-20 and call it a day


Is asinine, it carries no specs required for the VW. If the oil is capable or not of meeting those specs would be nothing more than a guess.
The chart IMO is fair to use to compare specs from manufacturers and their properties.

Exactly. Chart shows minimum requirements each specification demands oil manufacturers to meet if they want to get approval.
To say to put Supertech in VW calling 0W20 can come from someone that seriously lacking any understanding how this works.

 

[Imp4]

To be clear, no one should ever put an oil into an engine if the oil does not maintain the proper specifications or approvals.
Full stop.

The only thing I'm agreeing with Gokhan on is that one should not use the Lubrizol tool to cross compare across specifications, i.e. VW specs to Dexos, ACEA to API, MB to Dexos, etc......
Full stop.

Again, there are a thousand ways to measure relative performance between industry or manufacturer specifications. The Lubrizol tool is not one of those ways. At least according to Lubrizol it isn't.

Maybe some members here know more about Lubrizol's tool than Lubrizol does. Hey, you never know, right?

Cheers!!!