2013 stats, Texting/Driving

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We've had this conversation before as a side topic of the .05BAC thread.

Criminalize it; make using an electronic device while operating a vehicle an offense. (If hands free, it could be exempted).

After all, there are other examples where reckless/negligent behavior is a criminal offense. Even when preemptive:
- DWI/OWI
- reckless driving
- reckless discharge of a firearm
- etc
In these cases, do we wait until someone is actually harmed before an arrest is made? Nope - we have statutes that allow arrest due to the preponderance of risk PRIOR to someone getting hurt, recognizing that the actions are so dangerous and the probability of injury is great enough that making it a crime worthy of prosecution is accepted.

We'd have to be willing to accept the fact that "evidence" would be limited until records could be gained via warrant. However that does not solve all issues. We'd have to acknowledge that there would be challenges as to "exact time" of commission of crime. If you want out of your house, and text/call your son JUST BEFORE driving out the garage, and I pull you over one minute later for texting, the argument will be "my phone record is not accurate enough to know the EXACT time which texts went in/out. So officer testimony would be paramount, and have to be relied upon as the sole means of conviction at times.

Or, are you using the phone as a GPS tool? Or an alarm? (I mention the alarm because I don't wear a watch, and I use my phone as my morning alarm, and sometimes I actually am in the car prior to the alarm going off, and so I have to "turn off" the alarm when it sounds in the car ....)

How are we going to deal with folks that deny their actions, by shifting blame via culpable diversion? (Mom drives, and texts, and then when pulled over, hands the phone to her 8 year old child and says "It wasn't me; it was my child with it in her hand" so even when the electronic records are subpoenaed, she's still hoping to be not convicted even after arrest).

And as I also mentioned before, are we ready to clog up the courts with ever more cases? Slowing the already lethargic process? I mean, we're not talking about a few cases a year. This criminal act would probably become THE predominant charge for a while; the quantity would be significant. Would this be a bench trial, or go to a jury? Would there be prosecution-diversion programs?


Imagine this:
Q: How can an officer tell the difference between someone looking at their phone to "see what time it is" from someone who's looking at a text?
A: He can't. But does it matter? Distracted by the phone is distracted by the phone.
If we had a person "intoxicated" behind the wheel, the risk is the same regardless of the intoxicant (alcohol, marijuana, opioids, etc).


Now - I'm not advocating for this; at least not in full; not just yet. There are a LOT of things to fairly and fully discuss in a statutory sense.
We know for sure that texting (and such) while driving is dangerous. Just how willing are we to find a balance?
Before you answer, ask yourself how willing you'd accept a criminal record for your actions. Or your spouse? Or child?

This is, after all, why laws exist in the first place. People cannot always be trusted to "do the right thing"; they succumb to temptations at some time or another in nearly every age of life.
Why do we have laws making child porn a felony?
Why do we have laws making arson a crime?
Why do we have laws making it illegal to operate a vehicle while in a diminished state?
Do we really need laws to stop someone from doing these things (and a bazillion others)?
Apparently, yes, we do. Because some folks won't stop otherwise, and so we have to arrest them to stop the act(s). Even arrested preemptively.
Why would texting while driving be any different? We know it's incredibly dangerous, and I honestly believe that the stats don't even really bear out the real danger, because much of it goes unreported.

I recently covered an accident where one person rear-ended another at a stoplight. Completely clear day, no pavement issues, clear and dry, no mechanical failures. No reason whatsoever for someone to just smash into the back of another car that was waiting at a stoplight. The person whom caused the accident said she wasn't texting. But how do I know this to be true? It only takes three seconds to turn off the phone and hide it in your purse, but it took me three minutes to arrive at the scene. Unless I can articulately describe to a judge why I think probable cause exists to subpoena phone records (of which having a "hunch" is not acceptable), then the evidence of the "crime" would go undiscovered forever. There were only two people involved; no other witnesses. No one to give me a reason past unsubstantiated suspicion to get a warrant for records. And so my point is that many times the true root cause of these events are unreported; the underlying root cause of electronic device goes undiscovered. And so it goes unreported. And so our data will always be suspect to not be wholly accurate.


Before you sound off one way or another, ask yourself this:
If I advocate for this one way or another, what are the five resulting things that will be caused to happen? What laws of unintended consequences will arise from my position for or against this topic? If one advocates for criminalization, what are the things you'd be willing to tolerate in exchange? More taxes for more prosecution? The likelihood that someone in your family will be arrested and need a lawyer? If against, how willing are you to accept that YOUR child might die from his/her own actions, or someone else?

Just think before you post; think it all the way through to the end.
Don't make it about politics.
It's a discussion about CIVICS and not Parties.


Personally, as someone who's old enough to remember when phones had cords and didn't exist in a car, we all got through life just fine without mobile media technology. But that genie is out of the bottle and likely never to return. So how do we deal with this in the aftermath?
 
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The joys of driving and texting, drinking while driving, and approximately 40,000 deaths a year from driving,,,ban the car.... there will be no marches on Washington on this,,,just saying..
 
There is a "careless and wreckless" law in most states that would cover bad driving due to cell phone use.

BUT studies have suggested that texting can be as bad or worse that drunk driving. I think we are too lenient now on drunk driving. The second offense of DD should be forfeiture of the car.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/texting-while-driving-how-dangerous-is-it

I'd like to see texting motorists arrested just like DUI arrests. Same or more risk to the public. Same sentence. Perhaps classes on the dangers of phones and driving.
 
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I see people in restaurants who can't go one minute without checking their cell phone. Especially younger people, and the young girls seem to be addicted to watching that little screen for a message that doesn't amount to squat.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I sort of agree with Grampi, but there's 3 other people in my car who AREN'T driving.


It's about priorities. What's most important, eliminating the dangers of cell phone use while driving, or allowing the convenience of passengers to use their phones while in a moving vehicle? Is the communication so important that it can't wait until the vehicle is stopped? If so, is it more important than a human life?
 
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
The joys of driving and texting, drinking while driving, and approximately 40,000 deaths a year from driving,,,ban the car.... there will be no marches on Washington on this,,,just saying..


That's just stupid. A simple device installed in every phone rendering it inoperable while in a vehicle with the ignition on would stop all dangerous driving due to people using them while driving...
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3


Criminalize it; make using an electronic device while operating a vehicle an offense. (If hands free, it could be exempted).

After all, there are other examples where reckless/negligent behavior is a criminal offense. Even when preemptive:
- DWI/OWI
- reckless driving
- reckless discharge of a firearm
- etc
In these cases, do we wait until someone is actually harmed before an arrest is made? Nope - we have statutes that allow arrest due to the preponderance of risk PRIOR to someone getting hurt, recognizing that the actions are so dangerous and the probability of injury is great enough that making it a crime worthy of prosecution is accepted.



Be careful. Have to think about the analogy a bit further; but in NJ, firearm transport is illegal unless youre operating on certain exemptions. This creates its own world of lacking clarity, doing things "at your own peril", at the discretion of a judge or officer, etc. Tons of speculation, some comments that people will "be reasonable", but nobody wishing to find out at law as the guinea pig.

All in the name of public safety, public good, minimizing risk exposure, etc.

The cross between exempted behavior and preemptive protection reminds me of the logic with firearm transport restriction. Cellphones may not have the same inherent Consitutional protections, but it doesnt stop people from trying to push regulation and law.
 
It's criminalized in San Antonio, and I think all of Texas now, to be using any electronic device requiring touch while driving other than a navigation aid. I think the fine is $250. I always set to hands-free voice commands on my phone & Garmin personally, and have steering wheel controls for my entertainment system.

I still see plenty of people with their phone to one ear, or texting with one hand while driving. Some of the first words from the 19 year old young lady whose BMW rear-ended my wife's Mustang were "I wasn't using my phone, I swear!"

School zones have signs prohibiting all cell phone use within the school zone, I don't see that enforced at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
It's criminalized in San Antonio, and I think all of Texas now, to be using any electronic device requiring touch while driving other than a navigation aid. I think the fine is $250. I always set to hands-free voice commands on my phone & Garmin personally, and have steering wheel controls for my entertainment system.

I still see plenty of people with their phone to one ear, or texting with one hand while driving. Some of the first words from the 19 year old young lady whose BMW rear-ended my wife's Mustang were "I wasn't using my phone, I swear!"

School zones have signs prohibiting all cell phone use within the school zone, I don't see that enforced at all.


Could you cite the TX statute?
By "criminalizing" I mean it as defined by that which can involve incarceration. Not just "fines".
I would find it odd that TX currently has made it a crime to use a cell phone.

For clarity, a "civil" matter can only result in fiscal penalties. (infractions that results in fines).
Crimes can result in arrest and incarceration both prior to hearing and as corrective action (punishment).
 
Laws against using cell phones while driving do no good. People just ignore them, and law enforcement doesn't enforce them...
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
Laws against using cell phones while driving do no good. People just ignore them, and law enforcement doesn't enforce them...


Same goes for a lot of laws. People don't start obeying laws until enforcement and pretty massive fines and other penalties are given for infractions.

Many states are ramping up on the no cell phone use laws. Getting caught the 2nd or 3rd time results in ever increasing penalties. IMO, if caught 3 times the persons driver's license should be revoked for a lengthy period of time and a huge fine given.

When people realize it's going to be a whole lot of pain involved with getting caught they might just wake up and start doing the right thing.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: grampi
Laws against using cell phones while driving do no good. People just ignore them, and law enforcement doesn't enforce them...


Same goes for a lot of laws. People don't start obeying laws until enforcement and pretty massive fines and other penalties are given for infractions.

Many states are ramping up on the no cell phone use laws. Getting caught the 2nd or 3rd time results in ever increasing penalties. IMO, if caught 3 times the persons driver's license should be revoked for a lengthy period of time and a huge fine given.

When people realize it's going to be a whole lot of pain involved with getting caught they might just wake up and start doing the right thing.


Or all of this could be avoided by just producing cell phones that don't work when inside a vehicle with the ignition on...
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
It's criminalized in San Antonio, and I think all of Texas now, to be using any electronic device requiring touch while driving other than a navigation aid. I think the fine is $250. I always set to hands-free voice commands on my phone & Garmin personally, and have steering wheel controls for my entertainment system.

I still see plenty of people with their phone to one ear, or texting with one hand while driving. Some of the first words from the 19 year old young lady whose BMW rear-ended my wife's Mustang were "I wasn't using my phone, I swear!"

School zones have signs prohibiting all cell phone use within the school zone, I don't see that enforced at all.


Could you cite the TX statute?
By "criminalizing" I mean it as defined by that which can involve incarceration. Not just "fines".
I would find it odd that TX currently has made it a crime to use a cell phone.

For clarity, a "civil" matter can only result in fiscal penalties. (infractions that results in fines).
Crimes can result in arrest and incarceration both prior to hearing and as corrective action (punishment).



I certainnly can't off the top of my head, I'm not in law enforcement nor an attorney as shown in my profile. However anyone interested enough that has the skills to post on BITOG has the skills to research this. You should note my post shows I only know for sure within city limits of San Antonio, road signs are up for this just like seperate road signs in school zones. Happy hunting!
 
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
The joys of driving and texting, drinking while driving, and approximately 40,000 deaths a year from driving,,,ban the car.... there will be no marches on Washington on this,,,just saying..


This isn't a part of their agenda...
 
Originally Posted By: grampi


Or all of this could be avoided by just producing cell phones that don't work when inside a vehicle with the ignition on...

Probably not as simple as you think. It would have to be added to the automotive system and the phone. And then you have the problem of the phone possibly not working when a vehicle passes. And then of course you have the issue of emergency vehicles using it and even proximity problems with all cell phones. And of course all this costs money..nothing is free. How much are you personally willing to pay to impliment this?

Just indicating that it is not a simple solution nor one that can easily be implimented without research to insure that one solution does not leat do other problems. Nice to bat around suggestions on a forum and we all do it. But its not just a simple thing.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
It's criminalized in San Antonio, and I think all of Texas now, to be using any electronic device requiring touch while driving other than a navigation aid. I think the fine is $250. I always set to hands-free voice commands on my phone & Garmin personally, and have steering wheel controls for my entertainment system.

I still see plenty of people with their phone to one ear, or texting with one hand while driving. Some of the first words from the 19 year old young lady whose BMW rear-ended my wife's Mustang were "I wasn't using my phone, I swear!"

School zones have signs prohibiting all cell phone use within the school zone, I don't see that enforced at all.


Could you cite the TX statute?
By "criminalizing" I mean it as defined by that which can involve incarceration. Not just "fines".
I would find it odd that TX currently has made it a crime to use a cell phone.

For clarity, a "civil" matter can only result in fiscal penalties. (infractions that results in fines).
Crimes can result in arrest and incarceration both prior to hearing and as corrective action (punishment).



I certainnly can't off the top of my head, I'm not in law enforcement nor an attorney as shown in my profile. However anyone interested enough that has the skills to post on BITOG has the skills to research this. You should note my post shows I only know for sure within city limits of San Antonio, road signs are up for this just like seperate road signs in school zones. Happy hunting!


Well turns out it's simple enough even layman me can see it's HB 62 reported in yhe media for state-wide ban on texting while driving.

https://m.mysanantonio.com/neighborhood/...aw-12218486.php

Here's the related City of San Antonio rule.

SA RULE LINK

Merriam-Webster diagrees with your definition of "criminalize" BTW, indicating I used the term properly to begin with.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/criminalize
 
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Whoa, whoa, whoa, Whitewolf...

So, even using a hands free phone while talking on the it is just as bad as drinking and driving?? No WAY... Ohh the conversation is just as distracting and is just terrible. I have a simple thought to that... WHO IS GOING TO AdVOCATE for a LAW that demands the DRIVER not to be ALLOWED to TALK with ANYONE else in that CAR or TRUCK with them??? I guess we will call it the Shut The (you know what) Up Law-HB 229.3. Who's really going to EVER adhere to that ?? Soccer mom's?? Anyone with children period?? Of any age?? Teenagers with friends in the car?? Adults with it in other adults in the car or truck??? I can see it now...

Police officer: You know why I pulled you over today??
Driver: Ahh no.
Police officer: You violated the Shut The (you know what) Up Law by talking to the person seated next to you.
Driver: What?? When was this passed?? Why I have been driving for 20 years and always talked to my children, friends or family in the car with me. And I have never had an accident at all.
Police Officer: Ohh well. Doesn't matter. Now with our Shut The (you know what) Up Law none of that matters. We see you talking with another live human being that is with you in the vehicle.. We can pull you over and give you a ticket. $250 first time offense and manadatory traffic school. 2nd offense is same as reckless driving offense. 3rd offense you lose you driver's license for 6 months.

I'm sorry. But that is just loony tunes. Is having a conversation "distracting" whether it be on a hands free phone or with another person in the car or truck with you?? Ok. Sure it can be. But criminalizing a normal human interaction between people in a vehicle is just a big step WAY too far in my opinion. In fact I feel it's just far far overboard.


Having said that... I stopped even trying to text and drive back in 2004. And I only tried to do it like 3-4 times. And I very quickly realized it was like trying to read Sports Illustrated while going down the road or trying to shave using a Gillette Mach 3 and shave gel while going down the road.

Has for the phone... Yeah I do talk on my hands free phone on occasion. Though not all that often. In fact rather seldom. When I use it I feel like I am talking with someone who is in the car with me. Not a real huge issue. Again, I don't get in my car and think, " wow who do I need to talk to right now that I just got in my car". I never so that. In fact it really is not typical for me to call anyone at all when I'm in my car. It really is rather seldom. And when someone happens to call me, I do typically pick up and talk with them. But typically that does not happen all that often at all.
 
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