2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20)

[BHopkins]

Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a 6 quart sump. I am changing the oil after every 4 track days, so about 2,000 miles. Do you suggest shorter than that?



Do you really think you need to change it every 2000 miles? A co-worker does a lot of racing with an STI and an Evo. He tells me that the oil manufacturers have recently recommended to racers, to start with fresh oil at the beginning of the season, and after each race, change filter and top off. Then at the end of the race season do a full oil & filter change.

 

[05LGTLtd]

Does your Wally still stock PU? PU 5w20 or 5w30 should be pretty shear resistant. Being in Lakeland, your probably not going to notice much difference going to PU 5w20 or even 5w30 starting wise. Also might consider a high moly oil like Mazda 0w20, or dropping half a can of LM MOS2 in every OCI to try to reduce temps a touch.

Enjoy your BRZ!

 

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Does your Wally still stock PU? PU 5w20 or 5w30 should be pretty shear resistant. Being in Lakeland, your probably not going to notice much difference going to PU 5w20 or even 5w30 starting wise. Also might consider a high moly oil like Mazda 0w20, or dropping half a can of LM MOS2 in every OCI to try to reduce temps a touch.

Enjoy your BRZ!


Yeah I've seen some of the guys on the BRZ forums running the Mazda 0w20, do you know any specific part number, or is it just the Mazda 0w20 synthetic?

I believe my Walmart carries the Pennzoil Ultra, but I'll check.

Whats LM MOS2, and what does it do to help reduce oil temps? Sorry, not very knowledgeable on the terminology lol

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: dparm
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps.

+1 Don't try to fix a cooling issue by changing oil. Fix the cooling!

 

[05LGTLtd]

Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Does your Wally still stock PU? PU 5w20 or 5w30 should be pretty shear resistant. Being in Lakeland, your probably not going to notice much difference going to PU 5w20 or even 5w30 starting wise. Also might consider a high moly oil like Mazda 0w20, or dropping half a can of LM MOS2 in every OCI to try to reduce temps a touch.

Enjoy your BRZ!


Yeah I've seen some of the guys on the BRZ forums running the Mazda 0w20, do you know any specific part number, or is it just the Mazda 0w20 synthetic?

I believe my Walmart carries the Pennzoil Ultra, but I'll check.

Whats LM MOS2, and what does it do to help reduce oil temps? Sorry, not very knowledgeable on the terminology lol


PU has held up well in turbo Subaru applications. It is a gas to liquid technology base, and has a pretty low noack, which some believe to be a good thing for DI engines to help prevent deposits. Since the brz has a port injection system as well as DI, might not be that big an issue, but it has pretty solid specs all around. Many around here believe it is one of the top off the shelf oils you can buy without stepping up to redline, motul, amsoil, etc. It's a shame it was pulled from so many shelves earlier this year. The 5w30 is on the lower viscosity range for a 30 grade oil, iirc.

LM Mos2 is a moly additive. It has been touted to reduce oil temps and smooth things out in general:

http://www.liqui-moly.us/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/us_2009.html?Opendocument&land=US

It's available at most NAPA stores, or they can order it for you. Amazon also sells it.

There's also LM Ceratec, but it can be harder to find. It is supposed to keep working for several changes.

I've recently become a fan of using a upper cylinder lubricant. MMO has smoothed out both my subarus dosing 5-6 oz per tank. Some here on bitog swear by asheless outboard oil tw3, at 1oz/5gal...

 

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: dparm
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps.

+1 Don't try to fix a cooling issue by changing oil. Fix the cooling!


not an option for me as I outlined earlier. as I asked before, what specifically happens at 270* that causes long term or short term damage to the engine? is it the engine or the oil at that temp that something specifically happens?

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: smbstyle
... what specifically happens at 270* that causes long term or short term damage to the engine? is it the engine or the oil at that temp that something specifically happens?

Every application is different and those details will emerge with time and testing. All I can say for sure is that at 150C (300F) the oil is providing a thinner hydrodynamic wedge than at lower (normal) temperatures.

If you keep changing the type of oil you're using you'll never really know how well it's holding up. I'd suggest running three-in-a-row with the Toyota 0w20 then do the next three of something else. You're still breaking in the engine & drivetrain so the subtle differences are going to be harder to see right now.

I'd be less concerned with the engine oil unless you're aware of failures. Oil starvation might be a real concern though.

How are the transmission and diff fluids? If they haven't bee changed out yet then I'd get on that. By now they will be loaded with wear material.

 

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
... what specifically happens at 270* that causes long term or short term damage to the engine? is it the engine or the oil at that temp that something specifically happens?

Every application is different and those details will emerge with time and testing. All I can say for sure is that at 150C (300F) the oil is providing a thinner hydrodynamic wedge than at lower (normal) temperatures.

If you keep changing the type of oil you're using you'll never really know how well it's holding up. I'd suggest running three-in-a-row with the Toyota 0w20 then do the next three of something else. You're still breaking in the engine & drivetrain so the subtle differences are going to be harder to see right now.

I'd be less concerned with the engine oil unless you're aware of failures. Oil starvation might be a real concern though.

How are the transmission and diff fluids? If they haven't bee changed out yet then I'd get on that. By now they will be loaded with wear material.


Good point about back to back; I've done two OCIs with Toyota 0w20, so interested to see how it compares with the last.

Diff and Trans fluids have both been changed out at around 4k miles with Motul Gear 300.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Diff and Trans fluids have both been changed out at around 4k miles with Motul Gear 300.

Good job! Not sure Gear 300 is the optimal fluid for the trans but in your climate it probably works well.

Keep us posted!

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: smbstyle

How would you argue a catastrophic engine failure being caused by the oil being an SL rather than SN, specifically the characteristics of the SL that would be the cause of a catastrophic engine failure? That would be a stretch IMO.

I wouldn't argue that the hypothetical engine failure would be a result of the oil being SL, but a militant service writer at a stealership may decide to do an oil sample when you take him a failed engine and ask for a warranty rebuild. But I agree this would be a stretch since the service manual hasn't specified SN oil. What does your oil fill cap say?

 

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: smbstyle

How would you argue a catastrophic engine failure being caused by the oil being an SL rather than SN, specifically the characteristics of the SL that would be the cause of a catastrophic engine failure? That would be a stretch IMO.

I wouldn't argue that the hypothetical engine failure would be a result of the oil being SL, but a militant service writer at a stealership may decide to do an oil sample when you take him a failed engine and ask for a warranty rebuild. But I agree this would be a stretch since the service manual hasn't specified SN oil. What does your oil fill cap say?


I'll check to see what the fill cap says.

Luckily, the service manager at our dealer is super cool, a fellow BRZ enthusiast, and has warrantied my friend's BRZ a few times that had issues on track (something with the ignition system), without question and knowing it occurred on track. The two issues I've had I've told him about the issue through an email or text, and he's ordered the part before I even come in.

 

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Diff and Trans fluids have both been changed out at around 4k miles with Motul Gear 300.

Good job! Not sure Gear 300 is the optimal fluid for the trans but in your climate it probably works well.

Keep us posted!


Sure will!

It has worked great; actually cleared up the notchy 2-3 shifts when cold. A lot of the BRZ track guys are running it as well with great results.

Any specific reason why Gear 300 wouldn't be optimal? I believe it's a GL-4 75w90 gear fluid that the OEM recommends/specifies.

 

[nickolas84]

Definetely do not use an oil cooler. It will reduce lubrication to your engine with the stock oil pump. The Toyota 0W-20 seems to be working good for you temperature wise. But you say your manual states a Subaru approved oil so you want to check with that.
Do you have an oil life computer? If yes use it and stop the guess work. You may find you can get away with maybe ~10 track days! I would also change gear oil and differential fluid if you have with every oil change. You really cook up your transmission fluids on the track.

 

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Definetely do not use an oil cooler. It will reduce lubrication to your engine with the stock oil pump. The Toyota 0W-20 seems to be working good for you temperature wise. But you say your manual states a Subaru approved oil so you want to check with that.
Do you have an oil life computer? If yes use it and stop the guess work. You may find you can get away with maybe ~10 track days! I would also change gear oil and differential fluid if you have with every oil change. You really cook up your transmission fluids on the track.


Thanks for the feedback!

Unfortunately, no oil life computer...

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Definetely do not use an oil cooler. It will reduce lubrication to your engine with the stock oil pump.

Wow talk about bad advice and lack of understanding of lubrication.

 

[nickolas84]

Let me explain my ignorance then.
Adding an extra circuit like an oil cooler will reduce oil pressure, thus oil per minute delivered to the engine resulting in less lubrication and cooling (oil acts as a coolant as well) to the engine.
But it usually is worse than that. If you have to add an oil cooler you better make it one with a thermostat.
Otherwise when cruising you will never reach normal oil temperature which can really hurt your engine.

 

[bluesubie]

Looks like some similar recommdations here, eh?

Warranty schmarranty. It does seem like you have a good dealer, but there is always the possibility that SoA can override a dealer's call on the warranty. My dealer has a massive library of pics that are considered abuse and I'm sure they know what to look for in a car that has hit the track.

As you probably know, the popular Forester XT oil cooler mod that others are doing isn't really made for your car but it's not an "aftermarket" oil cooler either.

Motul Gear 300 is popular in these cars and it meets GL4 and GL5.

-Dennis

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Let me explain my ignorance then.
Adding an extra circuit like an oil cooler will reduce oil pressure, thus oil per minute delivered to the engine resulting in less lubrication and cooling (oil acts as a coolant as well) to the engine.
But it usually is worse than that. If you have to add an oil cooler you better make it one with a thermostat.
Otherwise when cruising you will never reach normal oil temperature which can really hurt your engine.


How much additional pressure drop will an oil cooler cause?
Will cooler oil cool better than hotter oil? Yes, it will. Also, cooler oil will oxidize more slowly, contributing to longer oil life.
Will the higher viscosity of the the cooler oil being supplied to the engine offset the lower oil pressure and result in higher oil film thickness? Yes, it will. Oil film thickness is not related to oil pressure, but it is a function of viscosity.
I have had an oil cooler on my Corvette track car for 4 years, and don't have a problem with the oil not heating up when I do drive it on the street. It gets to 180F, and pretty much stays there with the engine at 2400 rpm while cruising on the highway. On track, the hottest I have seen it is 260F.

 

[nickolas84]

To put it simply, think why you shouldn't thrash your engine cold. Missmatch of cold engine components may be a small part of it, but the main reason is you don't have enough oil flow. Viscosity is super high, oil pressure jumps to max right of idle, but flow is little to none and this can brake your engine.
Thicker is no match to the extreme forces in the parts that matter like the bearings, so by itself has nothing to offer to lubrication.
Modern oils, even 0W-20 hold up very well in high temperatures and propably can do at least 285F all day.
You don't want to cook your oil to the point of destroying it, but modern oils give you lots of headroom temperature wise.
By the way, all factory oil coolers have a thermostat.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
but flow is little to none


There is a plenty of flow unless you plug your oil galleries solid and try to pump everything out the relief valve on the pump. Oil pumps are positive displacement and displace the same amount of oil hot or cold. The only time when all of that volume isn't going through the engine is when the relief is open.

Ever fire up a cold engine with the valve covers off? If not, please do and then tell me there is little to no flow

Quote:
Thicker is no match to the extreme forces in the parts that matter like the bearings


The bearings are hydrodynamically lubricated. The measure of oil performance in the bearings and the relatively protection it provides is HTHS, which is high temp/high shear, measured at 150C, and designed to replicate the shearing effect that the bearing/journal interface has on a lubricant. The higher the HTHS viscosity, the higher the film strength the oil provides. And of course as you lower temperature, you increase that film strength. This is why we control oil temperatures in the first place and why cars that are tracked run higher viscosity oils or employ other methods of controlling oil temperature to keep this in check. Often it is a combination of the above though with large sumps, oil cooler and relatively heavy oil.

The two primary issues with cold thick oil are poor cylinder wall lubrication (spray out the side of the crank/rod interface is poor) and the fact that many parts of the additive package are heat activated and subsequently aren't working.

The other problems which you appear to have marginalized are indeed the parts themselves and their various expansion/contraction rates causing poor fitment until up to temp and the resultant fuel dilution in the cylinders which could lead to scuffing if it compromises the limited oil film on the bores which aren't getting much oil at this point.