Honda HTO-06 is just a deposit spec. Nothing special about it.
2012 WRX- Redline 5w-30 vs Mobil 0w-40
- Thread starter Josh8519
- Start date
- Status
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
Overkill,
Manufacture testing? I guess that is why Chrysler is going to PU huuhh? It must be a better oil. or was it financial, M1 is losing oe endorsement contracts. BOUT time because their ARE better oil and manufactures are catching on.
LONG LIVE PU!
:facepalm:
You appear to be confusing manufacturer testing/approval with OEM "factory fill".
Mobil lost the factory fill contract for Chrysler because of the pre-existing FIAT/SOPUS relationship. Using that to state that Mobil is "losing OE endorsement contracts" is a ridiculous strawman. That's like saying they are gaining OE contracts because of the VAG relationship and those acquisitions.
The last part of your post is nothing more than an opinion piece like every other time we've been down this road. There are a variety of good oils, PU being one of them, and that doesn't mean that one needs to vilify XOM to make that statement. But then this wouldn't be a discussion with "Dr. Dusty" if that wasn't included as part of the menu
Overkill,
Manufacture testing? I guess that is why Chrysler is going to PU huuhh? It must be a better oil. or was it financial, M1 is losing oe endorsement contracts. BOUT time because their ARE better oil and manufactures are catching on.
LONG LIVE PU!
:facepalm:
You appear to be confusing manufacturer testing/approval with OEM "factory fill".
Mobil lost the factory fill contract for Chrysler because of the pre-existing FIAT/SOPUS relationship. Using that to state that Mobil is "losing OE endorsement contracts" is a ridiculous strawman. That's like saying they are gaining OE contracts because of the VAG relationship and those acquisitions.
The last part of your post is nothing more than an opinion piece like every other time we've been down this road. There are a variety of good oils, PU being one of them, and that doesn't mean that one needs to vilify XOM to make that statement. But then this wouldn't be a discussion with "Dr. Dusty" if that wasn't included as part of the menu
Originally Posted By: 05foresterXT
Sorry, I just read the last couple pages, and saw about how Subaru changed the wording in the manual. If you are worried about the warranty, then I'd just run the Subaru 5w30, and drive it as hard as possible, and try to break it while it's under warranty.
LOL
Sorry, I just read the last couple pages, and saw about how Subaru changed the wording in the manual. If you are worried about the warranty, then I'd just run the Subaru 5w30, and drive it as hard as possible, and try to break it while it's under warranty.
LOL
Originally Posted By: 05foresterXT
Sorry, I just read the last couple pages, and saw about how Subaru changed the wording in the manual. If you are worried about the warranty, then I'd just run the Subaru 5w30, and drive it as hard as possible, and try to break it while it's under warranty.
Well that's good advice.
Since likely just shy of 100% of turbo engined Subaru owners use the spec'd 5W-30 grade, I guess it would be safe to assume you would not recommend buying a used one once the warranty has expired.
Quite frankly I'd be very surprised if current model Subarus didn't have electronic safety systems in place to prevent engine damage due to unusually high oil temp's; most if not all other manufacturers do.
Sorry, I just read the last couple pages, and saw about how Subaru changed the wording in the manual. If you are worried about the warranty, then I'd just run the Subaru 5w30, and drive it as hard as possible, and try to break it while it's under warranty.
Well that's good advice.
Since likely just shy of 100% of turbo engined Subaru owners use the spec'd 5W-30 grade, I guess it would be safe to assume you would not recommend buying a used one once the warranty has expired.
Quite frankly I'd be very surprised if current model Subarus didn't have electronic safety systems in place to prevent engine damage due to unusually high oil temp's; most if not all other manufacturers do.
I just find that Subaru's warranty requirements and oil recommendations are putting owners of new vehicles in a very tough position. Every known measure to prevent catastrophic damage to these motors seems to go directly against their recommendations and warranty requirements.
I had my original factory motor go while running nothing but 5w30, their recommended grade. I always experienced oil consumption, since the car was new. It turned into severe oil consumption when it was just outside warranty.
After 120,000 some odd miles, it was time for the motor to come out, and a new short block and turbo went in. It has only run on 10w40 after break-in was done, and it doesn't consume a drop of oil.
The Subaru community over the years has devised a few ways to deal with the severe oil consumption of these motors.
One is to step up to 5w40 / 10w40. It works for some, but likely won't do anything if there is ringland damage.
It is believed by some that the ringland issue is related to a bad factory tune, so others have their cars custom tuned, with extra attention paid to knock, as it's believe that detonation events are the main cause of the ringland failure issue.
Reflashing the ECU has had many people's warranty claims denied. By the old wording of the owner's manual, we could step up to a higher viscosity oil without warranty issues. If they are now denying warranty claims because someone puts 0w40 in their motor, then they are really screwing their customers over.
In the UK, Australia, Southern Asia, and Japan, Subarus have been running 10w50, 10w50, and 15w50 for decades. The North American market is the only one that has been sticking with the 5w30 requirement.
After owning a Subaru since brand new, I would not recommend a turbocharged Subaru to anyone, unless they are willing to replace the engine at some point in its life. As for the warranty requirement, you either say screw it to your warranty, or screw it to your car. It's up to everyone to choose which one is more important to them.
I had my original factory motor go while running nothing but 5w30, their recommended grade. I always experienced oil consumption, since the car was new. It turned into severe oil consumption when it was just outside warranty.
After 120,000 some odd miles, it was time for the motor to come out, and a new short block and turbo went in. It has only run on 10w40 after break-in was done, and it doesn't consume a drop of oil.
The Subaru community over the years has devised a few ways to deal with the severe oil consumption of these motors.
One is to step up to 5w40 / 10w40. It works for some, but likely won't do anything if there is ringland damage.
It is believed by some that the ringland issue is related to a bad factory tune, so others have their cars custom tuned, with extra attention paid to knock, as it's believe that detonation events are the main cause of the ringland failure issue.
Reflashing the ECU has had many people's warranty claims denied. By the old wording of the owner's manual, we could step up to a higher viscosity oil without warranty issues. If they are now denying warranty claims because someone puts 0w40 in their motor, then they are really screwing their customers over.
In the UK, Australia, Southern Asia, and Japan, Subarus have been running 10w50, 10w50, and 15w50 for decades. The North American market is the only one that has been sticking with the 5w30 requirement.
After owning a Subaru since brand new, I would not recommend a turbocharged Subaru to anyone, unless they are willing to replace the engine at some point in its life. As for the warranty requirement, you either say screw it to your warranty, or screw it to your car. It's up to everyone to choose which one is more important to them.
I said screw it to the warranty. Flashed a stage 1 tune (stock tune knocks and runs lean well into boost), canceled my extended warranty, and just recently put 40wt oil in.
The best warranty is one never used.
Your statement about not recommending a subaru is a little unsettling though.
The best warranty is one never used.
Your statement about not recommending a subaru is a little unsettling though.
Last edited:
Wait...
So you are blaming Subaru for engine & turbo not lasting well past the 60k warranty?
I get it you are mad but blaming SofA or even the oil is a thin argument at best.
Did you look at anything to prove 5w30 is inadequate? Bearings? Cylinder bores? If it is just a ringland issue as you say how is that the oils fault?
First you blame it on the oil, then the construction & tune with the engine. Which one is it?
I ran 5w30, 0w30, 5w40, 0w39(GC) but it was mostly 5w30 in my 2005 and besides the exhaust seal on the turbo letting go it had no issues for 4 years(50k) I had it even with tunes and WOT runs.
It even ran on conventional for a year before I got wise about it.
If your car had oil consumption since new 5w30 had very little to do with it.
So you are blaming Subaru for engine & turbo not lasting well past the 60k warranty?
I get it you are mad but blaming SofA or even the oil is a thin argument at best.
Did you look at anything to prove 5w30 is inadequate? Bearings? Cylinder bores? If it is just a ringland issue as you say how is that the oils fault?
First you blame it on the oil, then the construction & tune with the engine. Which one is it?
I ran 5w30, 0w30, 5w40, 0w39(GC) but it was mostly 5w30 in my 2005 and besides the exhaust seal on the turbo letting go it had no issues for 4 years(50k) I had it even with tunes and WOT runs.
It even ran on conventional for a year before I got wise about it.
If your car had oil consumption since new 5w30 had very little to do with it.
What causes oil consumption ?
Thats another thing I worry about the stock tune but there is nothing I can do about it. Last time I visited the dealer for the very well known TB coupler popping off(I was very busy so I went first thing in the AM) they told me they checked if I was tuned instead of just fixing it and be on my way, I waited 3 hours for this.
For ~$500 one can get a Stage 1 AP tune which will fix the AFR deal and smoothen out the engine. Which has been said,to be better for the motor. But if anything happens and they see your tuned your SOL. Now I do have a MOD friendly dealer but I am not sure how it will work if they have to do any official engine repairs were SOA pays.
For ~$500 one can get a Stage 1 AP tune which will fix the AFR deal and smoothen out the engine. Which has been said,to be better for the motor. But if anything happens and they see your tuned your SOL. Now I do have a MOD friendly dealer but I am not sure how it will work if they have to do any official engine repairs were SOA pays.
Last edited:
Teardown showed a stuck oil rings in multiple cylinders. Also, I was getting oil out of my turbo compressor. Is that not an oil issue? (Serious question, I actually don't know.) I always used the same oil (Mobil 1 5w30) until consumption became excessive. Using thicker oils seemed to help. Surprisingly, GC 0w30 did not help at all. Rotella T6 helped a little. Rotella T 15w40 did help, but I only ran it in summer, as I couldn't stand the idea of using it in the winter. When it finally let go, it was running a mix of Mobil 1 0w40 and Mobil 1 15w50. Consumption got severe on the 0w40. I'm not blaming the oil at all, as it was 40,000 miles into severe oil consumption. I started topping off with 15w50.
Anytime you see a lower viscosity oil being spec'd for North American markets, the OEM's fuel economy motivations become clear. For example, the preferred viscosity for my engine in North America is 5W-30 (10W-30 also spec'd), but everywhere else 5W-30 is explicitly forbidden above 0C in this engine, and 40wt's (and 50wt) are the recommended visc.
Why don't you turbo Subaru owners just keep a spare unmodified ecu for dealer visits?
Between Porsche, Mercedes AMG and Nissan GT-R OEM applications, M1 0W-40 is spec'd and used in some of the best turbocharged engines in the world. I wouldn't think twice about using it in the engines being discussed here.
Why don't you turbo Subaru owners just keep a spare unmodified ecu for dealer visits?
Between Porsche, Mercedes AMG and Nissan GT-R OEM applications, M1 0W-40 is spec'd and used in some of the best turbocharged engines in the world. I wouldn't think twice about using it in the engines being discussed here.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Anytime you see a lower viscosity oil being spec'd for North American markets, the OEM's fuel economy motivations become clear. For example, the preferred viscosity for my engine in North America is 5W-30 (10W-30 also spec'd), but everywhere else 5W-30 is explicitly forbidden above 0C in this engine, and 40wt's (and 50wt) are the recommended visc.
Why don't you turbo Subaru owners just keep a spare unmodified ecu for dealer visits?
Between Porsche, Mercedes AMG and Nissan GT-R OEM applications, M1 0W-40 is spec'd and used in some of the best turbocharged engines in the world. I wouldn't think twice about using it in the engines being discussed here.
When I do a UOA on this 0w-40, if it looks good, I'll stick with it and never look back.
Anytime you see a lower viscosity oil being spec'd for North American markets, the OEM's fuel economy motivations become clear. For example, the preferred viscosity for my engine in North America is 5W-30 (10W-30 also spec'd), but everywhere else 5W-30 is explicitly forbidden above 0C in this engine, and 40wt's (and 50wt) are the recommended visc.
Why don't you turbo Subaru owners just keep a spare unmodified ecu for dealer visits?
Between Porsche, Mercedes AMG and Nissan GT-R OEM applications, M1 0W-40 is spec'd and used in some of the best turbocharged engines in the world. I wouldn't think twice about using it in the engines being discussed here.
When I do a UOA on this 0w-40, if it looks good, I'll stick with it and never look back.
One UOA isn't going to tell you anything. There's a long informative article by Doug Hillary on the main page regarding how you should use them. The way used in this forum they are really only to determine lubricant condition and serviceability. Something like coolant or fuel ingression being the other obvious uses.
Originally Posted By: 05foresterXT
Teardown showed a stuck oil rings in multiple cylinders. Also, I was getting oil out of my turbo compressor. Is that not an oil issue? (Serious question, I actually don't know.) I always used the same oil (Mobil 1 5w30) until consumption became excessive. Using thicker oils seemed to help. Surprisingly, GC 0w30 did not help at all. Rotella T6 helped a little. Rotella T 15w40 did help, but I only ran it in summer, as I couldn't stand the idea of using it in the winter. When it finally let go, it was running a mix of Mobil 1 0w40 and Mobil 1 15w50. Consumption got severe on the 0w40. I'm not blaming the oil at all, as it was 40,000 miles into severe oil consumption. I started topping off with 15w50.
If I had to guess and really that is all I can do. I see two scenarios...
Bad tune from the factory fuel/air causing excessive carbon and the rings to get stuck. Not expanding and sealing as required.
Improperly installed rings from the factory which would explain consumption from the start since their only job is to prevent excessive oil from being sucked into the cylinder.
This is my limited knowledge on the subject as I am by no means an engine builder...tinker is more like it.
At that point you should have settled on a HM oil like Maxlife 10w40 to control the usage, it still should have protected the turbo well enough.
Teardown showed a stuck oil rings in multiple cylinders. Also, I was getting oil out of my turbo compressor. Is that not an oil issue? (Serious question, I actually don't know.) I always used the same oil (Mobil 1 5w30) until consumption became excessive. Using thicker oils seemed to help. Surprisingly, GC 0w30 did not help at all. Rotella T6 helped a little. Rotella T 15w40 did help, but I only ran it in summer, as I couldn't stand the idea of using it in the winter. When it finally let go, it was running a mix of Mobil 1 0w40 and Mobil 1 15w50. Consumption got severe on the 0w40. I'm not blaming the oil at all, as it was 40,000 miles into severe oil consumption. I started topping off with 15w50.
If I had to guess and really that is all I can do. I see two scenarios...
Bad tune from the factory fuel/air causing excessive carbon and the rings to get stuck. Not expanding and sealing as required.
Improperly installed rings from the factory which would explain consumption from the start since their only job is to prevent excessive oil from being sucked into the cylinder.
This is my limited knowledge on the subject as I am by no means an engine builder...tinker is more like it.
At that point you should have settled on a HM oil like Maxlife 10w40 to control the usage, it still should have protected the turbo well enough.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
BTW all 5W-30 oils meeting HTO-06 are "just" GP III based oils as is M1 SN 0W-40. Not too many of use are really concerned about it.
I'm not terribly concerned about it either, but with the holes in the definition of synthetic, I don't like to see wording like that in manuals. It's not very precise. What they should be doing is calling for a 5w-30 SN/GF-5 in conjunction with A1/B1 A5/B5 or something like that.
After all, if Subaru wants SN/GF-5 plus a little bit more, it should be somewhat quantifiable. I'm assuming they would have no problem with a Group III oil, but it's still imprecise.
BTW all 5W-30 oils meeting HTO-06 are "just" GP III based oils as is M1 SN 0W-40. Not too many of use are really concerned about it.
I'm not terribly concerned about it either, but with the holes in the definition of synthetic, I don't like to see wording like that in manuals. It's not very precise. What they should be doing is calling for a 5w-30 SN/GF-5 in conjunction with A1/B1 A5/B5 or something like that.
After all, if Subaru wants SN/GF-5 plus a little bit more, it should be somewhat quantifiable. I'm assuming they would have no problem with a Group III oil, but it's still imprecise.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
BTW all 5W-30 oils meeting HTO-06 are "just" GP III based oils as is M1 SN 0W-40. Not too many of use are really concerned about it.
I'm not terribly concerned about it either, but with the holes in the definition of synthetic, I don't like to see wording like that in manuals. It's not very precise. What they should be doing is calling for a 5w-30 SN/GF-5 in conjunction with A1/B1 A5/B5 or something like that.
After all, if Subaru wants SN/GF-5 plus a little bit more, it should be somewhat quantifiable. I'm assuming they would have no problem with a Group III oil, but it's still imprecise.
The Idemitsu made Subaru 5W-30 is a light energy conserving labelled, GP III oil, so Subaru doesn't want "a bit more" at least not in terms of viscosity.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
BTW all 5W-30 oils meeting HTO-06 are "just" GP III based oils as is M1 SN 0W-40. Not too many of use are really concerned about it.
I'm not terribly concerned about it either, but with the holes in the definition of synthetic, I don't like to see wording like that in manuals. It's not very precise. What they should be doing is calling for a 5w-30 SN/GF-5 in conjunction with A1/B1 A5/B5 or something like that.
After all, if Subaru wants SN/GF-5 plus a little bit more, it should be somewhat quantifiable. I'm assuming they would have no problem with a Group III oil, but it's still imprecise.
The Idemitsu made Subaru 5W-30 is a light energy conserving labelled, GP III oil, so Subaru doesn't want "a bit more" at least not in terms of viscosity.
Not sure if the HTO-06 spec have been updated recently, an oil meeting SN/GF-5 + Dexos1 specs, will not make me worry whether the oil meets HTO-06 spec or not. (unless its a warranty requirement)
I wonder why OP does not like to try PU 10W30 first, before considering RL 5W30 & M1 0W40! Since he had such a good run with PU 5W30...
You are not looking for an oil extended OCI nor gonna be tracking, I say give PU 10W30 a shot!
I wonder why OP does not like to try PU 10W30 first, before considering RL 5W30 & M1 0W40! Since he had such a good run with PU 5W30...
You are not looking for an oil extended OCI nor gonna be tracking, I say give PU 10W30 a shot!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The Idemitsu made Subaru 5W-30 is a light energy conserving labelled, GP III oil, so Subaru doesn't want "a bit more" at least not in terms of viscosity.
He he, no, that's not what I meant. That's why I mentioned A1/B1 A5/B5, which can be had in a resource conserving SN/GF-5 5w-30. Given what the Subaru 5w-30 is and the manual wording, they do what something beyond SN/GF-5, and it's obviously not a thicker viscosity.
The Idemitsu made Subaru 5W-30 is a light energy conserving labelled, GP III oil, so Subaru doesn't want "a bit more" at least not in terms of viscosity.
He he, no, that's not what I meant. That's why I mentioned A1/B1 A5/B5, which can be had in a resource conserving SN/GF-5 5w-30. Given what the Subaru 5w-30 is and the manual wording, they do what something beyond SN/GF-5, and it's obviously not a thicker viscosity.
Originally Posted By: Ibrahim
I wonder why OP does not like to try PU 10W30 first, before considering RL 5W30 & M1 0W40! Since he had such a good run with PU 5W30...
You are not looking for an oil extended OCI nor gonna be tracking, I say give PU 10W30 a shot!
Well few manufacturers spec' a 10W-XX grade any longer and none in a synthetic oil, and for good reason; it's a redundant grade.
Yes PU 10W-30 is heavier but at the expense of a lower VI.
If you want a higher HTHSV than the 3.1cP of PU 5W-30 simply add some PU 5W-40 or better still some of the high VI PU 0W-40.
Of course there is practical problem of availability which is why the OP didn't go back to PU in the first place.
Availability is not a problem with M1.
I wonder why OP does not like to try PU 10W30 first, before considering RL 5W30 & M1 0W40! Since he had such a good run with PU 5W30...
You are not looking for an oil extended OCI nor gonna be tracking, I say give PU 10W30 a shot!
Well few manufacturers spec' a 10W-XX grade any longer and none in a synthetic oil, and for good reason; it's a redundant grade.
Yes PU 10W-30 is heavier but at the expense of a lower VI.
If you want a higher HTHSV than the 3.1cP of PU 5W-30 simply add some PU 5W-40 or better still some of the high VI PU 0W-40.
Of course there is practical problem of availability which is why the OP didn't go back to PU in the first place.
Availability is not a problem with M1.
Random thoughts.
I ran 10w-30 PU for 30k in my LGT. Last oci showed no shear at 4k. I'm stage 3 ~300whp, and open source tune. I've gone to castrol 0w40 just for kicks. I have no problem running an xw40 in any turbo Subaru 2013 and earlier. T6, M1 0w40, GC, PU 5/10w30 are all proven fi Subaru oils.
If your going to tune, go open source and find someone who does a decent etune or a good local tuner. I had an access port, and the maps are ok, but custom maps are smoother. Tactrix cable and laptop required. You can go real cheap with a vagcon (?) cable and load a general stage 1 or 2 map available on tuning forums.
I ran 10w-30 PU for 30k in my LGT. Last oci showed no shear at 4k. I'm stage 3 ~300whp, and open source tune. I've gone to castrol 0w40 just for kicks. I have no problem running an xw40 in any turbo Subaru 2013 and earlier. T6, M1 0w40, GC, PU 5/10w30 are all proven fi Subaru oils.
If your going to tune, go open source and find someone who does a decent etune or a good local tuner. I had an access port, and the maps are ok, but custom maps are smoother. Tactrix cable and laptop required. You can go real cheap with a vagcon (?) cable and load a general stage 1 or 2 map available on tuning forums.
- Status
Similar threads
