What are your oil temperatures? What's the hottest you've seen, I think this was asked earlier and you did not answer. That will hold a key to this conversation.
2012 Mustang GT w- Oil Jets; Heavier Viscosity OK?
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Just for comparison my 6.1 liter V8 has oil squirters and is medium power density. Oil temps are routinely 300 degrees under sustained high speed track events.
Factory recommendation is 0W-40 M1, right on the cap, with a TSB for 15W-50 due to those pesky oil squirters getting noisy as viscosity drops.
Factory recommendation is 0W-40 M1, right on the cap, with a TSB for 15W-50 due to those pesky oil squirters getting noisy as viscosity drops.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I smell something too.
No offense of course, but you've been around here before, right?
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
Expound on that comment please. I smell a rat....pun fully intended.
My entire reason for creating an account and posting a question is to elicit a response and consult with RKI's and experts on this subject matter to get answers to my questions. Your simple post leaves much to be desired due to lack of meaningful content, and does not help answer my question at all.
The whole reason people have intelligent dialog is to learn. If you have something meaningful to add that will help, by all means post.
If not.....move along, get me?
I've perused a few threads in my search for knowledge on here, sure. Though today is the first time I've posted on these forums. Why do you ask?
I smell something too.
No offense of course, but you've been around here before, right?
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
Expound on that comment please. I smell a rat....pun fully intended.
My entire reason for creating an account and posting a question is to elicit a response and consult with RKI's and experts on this subject matter to get answers to my questions. Your simple post leaves much to be desired due to lack of meaningful content, and does not help answer my question at all.
The whole reason people have intelligent dialog is to learn. If you have something meaningful to add that will help, by all means post.
I've perused a few threads in my search for knowledge on here, sure. Though today is the first time I've posted on these forums. Why do you ask?
There was a thread recently where a guy with a high powered v8 engine (not stock) ran the recommended 5w30. UOA showed it shearing and there may have been other issues. General concensus was to use the next grade up. And that was recommended by pennzoil themselves who the owner was in contact with.
With 700hp you make more heat. Bigger injectors, more fuel, more fuel = more combustion. More combustion = more heat and quicker.
Sorry not scientific but a thin 30 grade or 20 will be risky in such an engine.
With 700hp you make more heat. Bigger injectors, more fuel, more fuel = more combustion. More combustion = more heat and quicker.
Sorry not scientific but a thin 30 grade or 20 will be risky in such an engine.
Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
What are your oil temperatures? What's the hottest you've seen, I think this was asked earlier and you did not answer. That will hold a key to this conversation.
An oversight perhaps.....so, here goes.
A. The only temp gauge on the vehicle is the factory one. At operating temp including normal driving, stuck in traffic, and playing its pretty much within a hair of dead center. I've the desire to identify and purchase and install a quality aftermarket one in some cool little pod eventually. Then lies the question....digital vs mechanical! hahahaha
What are your oil temperatures? What's the hottest you've seen, I think this was asked earlier and you did not answer. That will hold a key to this conversation.
An oversight perhaps.....so, here goes.
A. The only temp gauge on the vehicle is the factory one. At operating temp including normal driving, stuck in traffic, and playing its pretty much within a hair of dead center. I've the desire to identify and purchase and install a quality aftermarket one in some cool little pod eventually. Then lies the question....digital vs mechanical! hahahaha
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Motorcraft 5W50? I'd suggest Edge 5W50 but (at lease where I live) all of the parts chains have discontinued it. The Motorcraft can be bought at any Ford dealership.
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
Expound on that comment please. I smell a rat....pun fully intended.
Guessing it was a reference to the link you posted to that page on 540ratblog. That article has been debunked quite a few times on BITOG.
Expound on that comment please. I smell a rat....pun fully intended.
Guessing it was a reference to the link you posted to that page on 540ratblog. That article has been debunked quite a few times on BITOG.
DATA POINT!
After a very good and direct conversation with a Factory Ford Performance individual, I was informed, against the stacked deck....that it would not hurt this car with the oil squirters to go to a 5W-30 or even higher oil....HOWEVER....this is where it gets good....unless I would be racing at sustained temperature for a sustained period of time, I may not NEED to do that....5W-20 is just fine.
He had seen racing engines ran HARD for a LONG time with 5W-20 oil with NO problems.....mind you where this is coming from. He was not giving the typical factory line stuff either....he was a knowledgeable and experienced professional who was giving advise as he was shooting the breeze to a guy who needed it.
The squirters are basically pin holes and a little higher viscosity wont affect it, I was told. T
Ford changed back and forth between oil squirters 3 or more times on the coyote engines, and not just in the 2011-2012 year. That was interesting. With forged pistons and rods the block is good for about 825 hp or so. Stock....624 hp is pushing it....thats a lot of HP he said with hypertunetic pistons and the factory rods. He told me not to go any higher, as if it dynoed at 705hp from the other guy and has a bigger open air filter its probably not on their factory tune.
Noteworthy is this: 20 minutes of full out road racing is when temps start getting higher and can need a different oil. Driving even 5 hours in one direction on the highway in 6th gear is nothing, even in warm weather. Driving in the 80's on the highway and doing some wide open runs 3-6th gear a few times for fun won't even affect it with 5W-20 oil, even top speed stuff....its the top speed stuff held there for 20 minutes plus that does. Even drag racing 6 full out runs at the track doesn't even come close.
Any oil cooler wouldn't hurt ANY car.....taxi's come standard with em. Changing the transmission and rear differential oil early isn't bad either.
So....thinner oil obviously flows better and carries away more dirt and contaminants out of our engines better too.
Oh happy day! Praise God!!!
So, I've decided to get an oil sample from this first change of the old unknown oil...send it to Blackstone Laboratory. I'm going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 with a WIX XP oil filter for the first two oil changes, and get my transmission oil and rear diff oil changed too. Car has 27k miles now.
I'll follow up with Data Points from the oil analysis.
Thanks for your willingness to help folks, I appreciate it.
After a very good and direct conversation with a Factory Ford Performance individual, I was informed, against the stacked deck....that it would not hurt this car with the oil squirters to go to a 5W-30 or even higher oil....HOWEVER....this is where it gets good....unless I would be racing at sustained temperature for a sustained period of time, I may not NEED to do that....5W-20 is just fine.
He had seen racing engines ran HARD for a LONG time with 5W-20 oil with NO problems.....mind you where this is coming from. He was not giving the typical factory line stuff either....he was a knowledgeable and experienced professional who was giving advise as he was shooting the breeze to a guy who needed it.
The squirters are basically pin holes and a little higher viscosity wont affect it, I was told. T
Ford changed back and forth between oil squirters 3 or more times on the coyote engines, and not just in the 2011-2012 year. That was interesting. With forged pistons and rods the block is good for about 825 hp or so. Stock....624 hp is pushing it....thats a lot of HP he said with hypertunetic pistons and the factory rods. He told me not to go any higher, as if it dynoed at 705hp from the other guy and has a bigger open air filter its probably not on their factory tune.
Noteworthy is this: 20 minutes of full out road racing is when temps start getting higher and can need a different oil. Driving even 5 hours in one direction on the highway in 6th gear is nothing, even in warm weather. Driving in the 80's on the highway and doing some wide open runs 3-6th gear a few times for fun won't even affect it with 5W-20 oil, even top speed stuff....its the top speed stuff held there for 20 minutes plus that does. Even drag racing 6 full out runs at the track doesn't even come close.
Any oil cooler wouldn't hurt ANY car.....taxi's come standard with em. Changing the transmission and rear differential oil early isn't bad either.
So....thinner oil obviously flows better and carries away more dirt and contaminants out of our engines better too.
Oh happy day! Praise God!!!
So, I've decided to get an oil sample from this first change of the old unknown oil...send it to Blackstone Laboratory. I'm going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 with a WIX XP oil filter for the first two oil changes, and get my transmission oil and rear diff oil changed too. Car has 27k miles now.
I'll follow up with Data Points from the oil analysis.
Thanks for your willingness to help folks, I appreciate it.
Nice. Thanks for posting.
Does your car have an oil cooler? If not, adding one (with a thermostat) should be all you need.
Another thing you could do, if you're still nervous, is to switch to a high-end 0w-20 synthetic. There are a few REALLY serious ones around.
Does your car have an oil cooler? If not, adding one (with a thermostat) should be all you need.
Another thing you could do, if you're still nervous, is to switch to a high-end 0w-20 synthetic. There are a few REALLY serious ones around.
Thanks for the tips D00df00d!
I've been checking out some oil cooler options, yes. Then taking the thing in to get checked out on a Dyno and look at current tuning and all that fun stuff. I'm just a bit out of my element here, that is until I learn more and it becomes common as so much other fields of interest. Been some years since I had a Muscle Car.
What high end 0w-20's do you personally recommend? I'll look into them.
Hey, this guy does seem legit for what its worth. Don't know why many have such an issue? I've a very expansive vocabulary, but when I'm shooting the breeze, typing, I could care less if I have perfect grammar or sentence structure. This is a social element and outlet to give advice, not a formal thesis nor presentation, nor published matter. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36916&start=0
Well, hopefully all goes good with my Mustang and I'll be able to provide some good data from my oil analysis tests shortly. I appreciate all the help earlier folks. And thanks for all the prompt replies too.
I've been checking out some oil cooler options, yes. Then taking the thing in to get checked out on a Dyno and look at current tuning and all that fun stuff. I'm just a bit out of my element here, that is until I learn more and it becomes common as so much other fields of interest. Been some years since I had a Muscle Car.
Hey, this guy does seem legit for what its worth. Don't know why many have such an issue? I've a very expansive vocabulary, but when I'm shooting the breeze, typing, I could care less if I have perfect grammar or sentence structure. This is a social element and outlet to give advice, not a formal thesis nor presentation, nor published matter. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36916&start=0
Well, hopefully all goes good with my Mustang and I'll be able to provide some good data from my oil analysis tests shortly. I appreciate all the help earlier folks. And thanks for all the prompt replies too.
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
Again, I understand the legal ramifications about that, however this car has oil jets. The purpose of these on this particular model is to help heat the oil quicker and to provide better cooling at operational temperature.
Err, no. The purpose of the oil jets is to cool the back sides of the pistons and allow the engine a bit more compression (NA) or boost (like here) without detonation problems. This actually takes a bit of HP away as the pistons are heavier and the oil pump has to pump more oil.
Quote:
Thermodynamics, hydrodynamics and all that good stuff. However on the cold start with the slightly thicker oil, on the 2011-2012 Mustangs with these particular size whatever they are of oil jets, is not indicative of compatibility with whatever size are used in OTHER Ford engines.
You do not need to worry about cold start conditions with oil jets any more than cold starts without oil jets. By the time the oil gets up to temperature the jets will be squirting. Unless you are cold starting and immediately demanding full power, there is nothing to worry about, and if you are cold starting and demanding full power instantly, you have other things to worry about, first.
Mitch
Again, I understand the legal ramifications about that, however this car has oil jets. The purpose of these on this particular model is to help heat the oil quicker and to provide better cooling at operational temperature.
Err, no. The purpose of the oil jets is to cool the back sides of the pistons and allow the engine a bit more compression (NA) or boost (like here) without detonation problems. This actually takes a bit of HP away as the pistons are heavier and the oil pump has to pump more oil.
Quote:
Thermodynamics, hydrodynamics and all that good stuff. However on the cold start with the slightly thicker oil, on the 2011-2012 Mustangs with these particular size whatever they are of oil jets, is not indicative of compatibility with whatever size are used in OTHER Ford engines.
You do not need to worry about cold start conditions with oil jets any more than cold starts without oil jets. By the time the oil gets up to temperature the jets will be squirting. Unless you are cold starting and immediately demanding full power, there is nothing to worry about, and if you are cold starting and demanding full power instantly, you have other things to worry about, first.
Mitch
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
I've been checking out some oil cooler options, yes.
Most of the time one thinks they need a higher viscosity oil, what they really need is an oil cooler, or a bigger oil cooler. A 30ºF drop in oil temperature is equal to a step in the weight of the oil. That is a 5W-30 oil at normal operating temperature (212º) will have the same actual lubricating viscosity as a 5W-40 oil at 30ºF higher than operating temperature (242º).
Then what you use to decide if your oil cooler is BIG enough is an oil temperature gauge. This little handy device can tell you a lot about your engine, and the engine bay components designed to keep it alive.
I've been checking out some oil cooler options, yes.
Most of the time one thinks they need a higher viscosity oil, what they really need is an oil cooler, or a bigger oil cooler. A 30ºF drop in oil temperature is equal to a step in the weight of the oil. That is a 5W-30 oil at normal operating temperature (212º) will have the same actual lubricating viscosity as a 5W-40 oil at 30ºF higher than operating temperature (242º).
Then what you use to decide if your oil cooler is BIG enough is an oil temperature gauge. This little handy device can tell you a lot about your engine, and the engine bay components designed to keep it alive.
Thanks for your thoughts Mitch. Nice work up you did. I wasn't aware getting an oil cooler was equivalent to going up a grade. Thanks for that info.
On the oil jets portion for the sake of discussion, this is one of the locations where I got my information.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/features/...-return-of-5-0/
Ford says, “The aluminum block was developed for optimized windage and oil drain back under lateral conditions and high-rpm use, such as a track-day outing. Increased main bearing bulkhead widths and nodular iron cross-bolted main bearing caps with upsized bolts were also employed to accommodate the significant performance increase. An additional element is the increased capacity and baffling of the deep-sump stamped steel oil pan to enable sustained high-rpm use and offer the convenience of 10,000-mile oil change intervals. Piston-cooling jets also were incorporated for performance-minded customers and for faster oil warm-up on cold start.”
On the oil jets portion for the sake of discussion, this is one of the locations where I got my information.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/features/...-return-of-5-0/
Ford says, “The aluminum block was developed for optimized windage and oil drain back under lateral conditions and high-rpm use, such as a track-day outing. Increased main bearing bulkhead widths and nodular iron cross-bolted main bearing caps with upsized bolts were also employed to accommodate the significant performance increase. An additional element is the increased capacity and baffling of the deep-sump stamped steel oil pan to enable sustained high-rpm use and offer the convenience of 10,000-mile oil change intervals. Piston-cooling jets also were incorporated for performance-minded customers and for faster oil warm-up on cold start.”
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Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
...I'm going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 with a WIX XP oil filter for the first two oil changes, and get my transmission oil and rear diff oil changed too. Car has 27k miles now.
Based on 540Rat Engineering tests, oil film strength can be a critical factor in engine wear especially in extreme load conditions. Data was available for PUP in 5W30, but not for 5W20. However, data was available for the older PU (API SM) with an indicated oil film strength of 115,612 psi for 5W30 versus 86,034 psi for 5W20. Based on the superior oil film strength of the heavier 5W30, I think this might be a better choice in your particular case.
...I'm going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 with a WIX XP oil filter for the first two oil changes, and get my transmission oil and rear diff oil changed too. Car has 27k miles now.
Based on 540Rat Engineering tests, oil film strength can be a critical factor in engine wear especially in extreme load conditions. Data was available for PUP in 5W30, but not for 5W20. However, data was available for the older PU (API SM) with an indicated oil film strength of 115,612 psi for 5W30 versus 86,034 psi for 5W20. Based on the superior oil film strength of the heavier 5W30, I think this might be a better choice in your particular case.
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
...I'm going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 with a WIX XP oil filter for the first two oil changes, and get my transmission oil and rear diff oil changed too. Car has 27k miles now.
Based on 540Rat Engineering tests, oil film strength can be a critical factor in engine wear especially in extreme load conditions. Data was available for PUP in 5W30, but not for 5W20. However, data was available for the older PU (API SM) with an indicated oil film strength of 115,612 psi for 5W30 versus 86,034 psi for 5W20. Based on the superior oil film strength of the heavier 5W30, I think this might be a better choice in your particular case.
Again as stated before on this forum the Rat tests while interesting aren't worth a hill of beans in real world applications. It's not really a strong indicator of what happens in an internal combustion engine.
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
...I'm going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 with a WIX XP oil filter for the first two oil changes, and get my transmission oil and rear diff oil changed too. Car has 27k miles now.
Based on 540Rat Engineering tests, oil film strength can be a critical factor in engine wear especially in extreme load conditions. Data was available for PUP in 5W30, but not for 5W20. However, data was available for the older PU (API SM) with an indicated oil film strength of 115,612 psi for 5W30 versus 86,034 psi for 5W20. Based on the superior oil film strength of the heavier 5W30, I think this might be a better choice in your particular case.
Again as stated before on this forum the Rat tests while interesting aren't worth a hill of beans in real world applications. It's not really a strong indicator of what happens in an internal combustion engine.
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
What high end 0w-20's do you personally recommend? I'll look into them.
Fuchs makes a few 0w-20s in the Titan line. I'm not familiar with the current lineup, but based on their website, the GT1 EVO and XTL variants are the ones I'd look at.
If you want something with racing pedigree and are willing to do short OCIs, Motul makes 300V in 0w-20.
If you want something more commonly available, Mobil 1 5w-20 or Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0w-20 look good.
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
Hey, this guy does seem legit for what its worth.
I'm sure he's fine. The problem is that the test has nothing to do with a running engine.
What high end 0w-20's do you personally recommend? I'll look into them.
Fuchs makes a few 0w-20s in the Titan line. I'm not familiar with the current lineup, but based on their website, the GT1 EVO and XTL variants are the ones I'd look at.
If you want something with racing pedigree and are willing to do short OCIs, Motul makes 300V in 0w-20.
If you want something more commonly available, Mobil 1 5w-20 or Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0w-20 look good.
Originally Posted By: OilQuestions
Hey, this guy does seem legit for what its worth.
I'm sure he's fine. The problem is that the test has nothing to do with a running engine.
You'r not going to get a definitive answer. Everything is purely speculative and your question begs more questions.
Does your car have billet oil pump gears? If not or you don't know I would sure do some research on OPG failure in modded 5.0 coyote motors.
If your car really does have 705 rwhp, if it's a manual with 15% parasitic driveline loss that is about 810hp at the crank. I would definitely do some research on the life expectancy of 5.0 coyote motors when they are pushed to those levels. Most do not survive at that power level long. The rods are too weak.
Does your car have a catch can?
Stock head bolts?
No boost gauge?
Just FYI there were some changes made to the 13-14 Coyote to help prevent the notorious #8 cylinder failure issue that was so prevalent on the 11-12 cars.
Not knowing who tuned the car would scare the heck out of me.
IMO I would run M1 0w40, and call it a day.
Does your car have billet oil pump gears? If not or you don't know I would sure do some research on OPG failure in modded 5.0 coyote motors.
If your car really does have 705 rwhp, if it's a manual with 15% parasitic driveline loss that is about 810hp at the crank. I would definitely do some research on the life expectancy of 5.0 coyote motors when they are pushed to those levels. Most do not survive at that power level long. The rods are too weak.
Does your car have a catch can?
Stock head bolts?
No boost gauge?
Just FYI there were some changes made to the 13-14 Coyote to help prevent the notorious #8 cylinder failure issue that was so prevalent on the 11-12 cars.
Not knowing who tuned the car would scare the heck out of me.
IMO I would run M1 0w40, and call it a day.
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
You'r not going to get a definitive answer. Everything is purely speculative and your question begs more questions.
Does your car have billet oil pump gears? If not or you don't know I would sure do some research on OPG failure in modded 5.0 coyote motors.
If your car really does have 705 rwhp, if it's a manual with 15% parasitic driveline loss that is about 810hp at the crank. I would definitely do some research on the life expectancy of 5.0 coyote motors when they are pushed to those levels. Most do not survive at that power level long. The rods are too weak.
Does your car have a catch can?
Stock head bolts?
No boost gauge?
Just FYI there were some changes made to the 13-14 Coyote to help prevent the notorious #8 cylinder failure issue that was so prevalent on the 11-12 cars.
Not knowing who tuned the car would scare the heck out of me.
IMO I would run M1 0w40, and call it a day.
The oil pump gears are something I mentioned in an earlier post changing them out to billet gears is a must with a blown Coyote! Your comments on high HP and the rods is quite correct pushing the bottom half of the Coyote above 600 HP at the rear wheels is just asking for a short life on stock pistons and rods. There were other changes made to the Coyote 5.0 in 2013 not only were the piston squirtrs deleted but the piston and all the rings were all changed. Ford had issues with the early piston/ring design.
I looked into adding a supercharger to my 2013 5.0 GT but the only way I would do it is with a forged bottom end as well as many other upgrades and to do it right is just to costly.
You'r not going to get a definitive answer. Everything is purely speculative and your question begs more questions.
Does your car have billet oil pump gears? If not or you don't know I would sure do some research on OPG failure in modded 5.0 coyote motors.
If your car really does have 705 rwhp, if it's a manual with 15% parasitic driveline loss that is about 810hp at the crank. I would definitely do some research on the life expectancy of 5.0 coyote motors when they are pushed to those levels. Most do not survive at that power level long. The rods are too weak.
Does your car have a catch can?
Stock head bolts?
No boost gauge?
Just FYI there were some changes made to the 13-14 Coyote to help prevent the notorious #8 cylinder failure issue that was so prevalent on the 11-12 cars.
Not knowing who tuned the car would scare the heck out of me.
IMO I would run M1 0w40, and call it a day.
The oil pump gears are something I mentioned in an earlier post changing them out to billet gears is a must with a blown Coyote! Your comments on high HP and the rods is quite correct pushing the bottom half of the Coyote above 600 HP at the rear wheels is just asking for a short life on stock pistons and rods. There were other changes made to the Coyote 5.0 in 2013 not only were the piston squirtrs deleted but the piston and all the rings were all changed. Ford had issues with the early piston/ring design.
I looked into adding a supercharger to my 2013 5.0 GT but the only way I would do it is with a forged bottom end as well as many other upgrades and to do it right is just to costly.
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Err, no. The purpose of the oil jets is to cool the back sides of the pistons and allow the engine a bit more compression (NA) or boost (like here) without detonation problems. This actually takes a bit of HP away as the pistons are heavier and the oil pump has to pump more oil.
x2.
Oil squirters have been mentioned a hundred times in this thread so I'll address them directly. Oil squirters are nothing new or special in factory engines and I'm not sure why so much emphasis have been put on them in this thread. My factory SR20DET had them and they weren't unhappy with any oil choice or temp even with 2.5 times the original output. In fact, in my 500hp 4g63 I built, I REMOVED the oil squirters because the forged pistons I was using didn't need them and the stroker pistons wouldn't physically fit with them in place. They dissipated heat much better and after porting the oil relief bypass valve, the oil pressure was nearly the same as stock.
My point is you can make a ton of power on whatever oil, with or without oil squirters, but that's the least of your worries for longevity with your setup.
Err, no. The purpose of the oil jets is to cool the back sides of the pistons and allow the engine a bit more compression (NA) or boost (like here) without detonation problems. This actually takes a bit of HP away as the pistons are heavier and the oil pump has to pump more oil.
x2.
Oil squirters have been mentioned a hundred times in this thread so I'll address them directly. Oil squirters are nothing new or special in factory engines and I'm not sure why so much emphasis have been put on them in this thread. My factory SR20DET had them and they weren't unhappy with any oil choice or temp even with 2.5 times the original output. In fact, in my 500hp 4g63 I built, I REMOVED the oil squirters because the forged pistons I was using didn't need them and the stroker pistons wouldn't physically fit with them in place. They dissipated heat much better and after porting the oil relief bypass valve, the oil pressure was nearly the same as stock.
My point is you can make a ton of power on whatever oil, with or without oil squirters, but that's the least of your worries for longevity with your setup.
Just my 2 cents on gauge choice. I've gone digital and for something that rises slowly like temp gauges, I really like the digital over analogue. Fyi I have a digital oil temp display and an analogue water temp display. Digital hands down. As for oil pressure or boost, that's a different story!
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