2011 Camry Engine Pinging

[Hokiefyd]

Initially, I was thinking that it was maybe something with the VVT system, the cams phasing or something. And I suppose that could still be it. But it sounds an AWFUL lot like spark knock. And I can induce it at will with the throttle pedal.

I've only owned one fuel-injected engine that pinged, and that was the 5.2L V-8 in my old Dakota. And it only pinged because the lower intake manifold seal was bad (pinging and oil consumption was a documented symptom of that). And of my carbureted engines, they'd only ping if the EGR was plugged or disconnected. After changing the water pump on my '84 Oldsmobile, I drove it 250 miles listening to it ping like a diesel until I realized that I left the vacuum hose off the EGR valve.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Car goes to the dealer tomorrow, so I hope to be able to report something positive back in a day or two.

 

[mechtech2]

Also look for the air inlet getting hot air when it shouldn't.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I'd already own a ScanGauge (vs. waiting for my birthday like a good boy) if it would display the knock sensor activity, but I don't think it does. If the technician says he doesn't hear the knock, I'd love to ride with him with his scan tool plugged in to see if the knock sensor is even "talking" to the computer during the knock. It could be a completely dead knock sensor, but you'd think it'd throw a CEL if that were the case.


It doesn't ping at WOT, but you hear a pre-ignition type rattle as the engine shifts at low rpm?

I've seen some engines exhibit this behavior with owners chasing everything in the book, colder heat range spark plugs, fuel system cleaner, higher octane fuel, cleaning MAF elements, new O2s only see minimal to no improvement. Then their engine lets go 30,000 miles later with a cracked piston skirt, wrist pin or wrist pin bushing problem revealing the noise to be something other than pre-ignition all along.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with your car, but if you find nothing effects the detonation you might want to keep an ear open for any developing or strange bottom end noises.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I don't think it's pre-ignition. Everything I've heard about pre-ignition says that if you hear it, it's passed too late and the piston may already irrepairable damage (or simply a hole in it). No, this sounds like very classic spark knock, just not at the point when you typically hear that (heavy acceleration, etc).

I believe this has everything to do with this being a very modern engine control system that is varying fuel and valve timing and spark timing, and that is what is producing the knock. To be sure, I don't think it should be there at all, but what I'm saying is that I don't think this is a "mechanical" problem like a bad EGR valve (I don't even think this engine has EGR) or carbon deposits or anything like that. I'm thinking it's more like a bad sensor or bad ECM like suggested earlier.

The car's at the dealer now, so I reckon I'll know more later today. The shuttle van was a loaded up Sienna XLE, 2011 model. I was not as impressed with the inside as I am with the outside. I rode in the front seat, and the features were impressive. It had it all: leather, moonroof, power everything, navigation, etc. But the ride wasn't all that quiet over bumps and the ride comfort was not much different from our former Town & Country. Everything I've read about the 2011 Sienna says that NVH and ride quality has suffered compared with the previous generation, and I believe it.

 

[Rix]

They do ping between shifts, it annoys me, but it is what it is. between shifts (they actually are partially in 2 gears at once, engine power is cut, etc, to make them shift almost seamlessly) the ecu is controlling EVERYTHING. Throttle position, trans solenoids, spark timing, fuel, etc. It's also MONOTORING everything, and they are SENSITIVE.

Now.... there are ecu updates going on all the time on this new stuff, it is worth a trip to the dealer to have it checked.
You should still be under bumper to bumper warranty, so you might as well.
We haven't seen alot of trends towards those cars having trouble, but that doesn't mean anything.
if there is a danger to the engine, transmission, catalytic convertor, etc, due to a design defect, there will be SOME sort of info on it. Either a TSB, SSC, etc.

 

[mechtech2]

pre ignition and detonation end up the same.
The knock doesn't care what caused it initially.

 

[wiswind]

I have a 2003 Toyota Sienna that did this once in a while.....slight accelleration on a slight grade.
There is a TSB out for my Sienna that has the dealership replace the ECU (computer) under waranty.
In my case, it was over the mileage by the time I got the vehicle.
I have been running higher octane and it seems to help, but the problem is very intermittent for me to start with.
The TSB was to address the issue under waranty if the customer brought the vehicle in with this complaint and that were able to duplicate the issue.
The 2003 Sienna came with the 1MZFE 6 cylinder motor.
TSB was for 2001 - 2003 Sienna with this engine.
TSB # T-SB-0125-08 issued 11/17/2008
It was covered under the "Toyota Federal Emissions Waranty" 96 months or 80,000 miles, whichever comes first.

I do not know if this is the case for your Camry or not, but....since it is under waranty, I would get it back for the dealer to evaluate.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I had a good visit with the dealer today. Car's still not fixed, but it was a good visit nonetheless. The tech couldn't hear what I was hearing. So I went for a ride with him, and I drove the car. I could make it ping, but he still didn't hear it. I asked if there was a scan tool they could use to monitor the knock sensor, to watch it working. He said there was. We went back to the dealer and had the driveability tech drive. He thought he could hear what I was hearing, but didn't think it was spark knock or pinging. I asked him the same question about the scanner, so we went back to the dealer and he got his laptop. He used T-VIS or something like that to monitor the car as he drove. I held the laptop in the passenger seat and watched the Knock Sensor activity. Normally, it would read about -2 to -3, and the units were CA or CP (I can't remember). When it would ping, the sensor activity would run up (or down) to anywhere from -5 to about -13. So it's clear that the knock sensor was hearing it. I hate that I don't remember what the spark advance was doing at the time the knock activity was high.

Turns out his personal car is also a 2011 Camry. He's got some goodies on his, like the TRD sport exhaust. We talked a lot about Camrys in general, and I was interested in hearing the TRD exhaust, so when we got back, he let me drive his. I remarked that I didn't hear ANY pinging in his, and he said he actually has midgrade in it now, but he doesn't remember hearing any pinging on regular. He also said he listens to air tools all day, so he's probably not as sensitive to it as I am.

Anyway, he's going to submit the data to Toyota first thing tomorrow, and hopefully hear back from them tomorrow also. I wouldn't have wrote all this if I didn't feel like they gave me 110% this afternoon. They went way above and beyond what I expected them to do with a customer, and treated me like one of them. Two continued thumbs up to Rick Hendrick Toyota in Fayetteville, NC, for making it right with the customer.

If, after all this, Toyota decides this is normal, I may try midgrade and see if that lessens or eliminates the ping. If so, I think I'd go back to them and point that out; the car clearly calls for regular, and midgrade shouldn't be required to keep pinging at bay.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Rix
They do ping between shifts, it annoys me, but it is what it is. between shifts (they actually are partially in 2 gears at once, engine power is cut, etc, to make them shift almost seamlessly) the ecu is controlling EVERYTHING. Throttle position, trans solenoids, spark timing, fuel, etc. It's also MONOTORING everything, and they are SENSITIVE.


Rix, thanks for your reply. Do you have a 2010/2011 Camry and hear the same thing? If so, I'd be glad to know that I'm not just hearing things.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Until the knock sensor came on line [03 for Ford] every single car I owned had major pinging issues.



Oh! This explains why my 2002 F-150 with the 4.6 pings sometimes

. It does it a lot less since I've been running FP60 faithfully. In fact it barely does it any more. It was at light throttle and after shifting (manual transmission)mostly from 2nd to 3rd & 3rd to 4th. It's now livable. The owners manual says that light pinging is "normal" and don't worry. I only use 87 octane fuel, that's expensive enough

!

Whimsey

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Until the knock sensor came on line [03 for Ford] every single car I owned had major pinging issues.


The knock sensor came earlier than that, my 01 F150 has a knock sensor.

 

[Rix]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Rix
They do ping between shifts, it annoys me, but it is what it is. between shifts (they actually are partially in 2 gears at once, engine power is cut, etc, to make them shift almost seamlessly) the ecu is controlling EVERYTHING. Throttle position, trans solenoids, spark timing, fuel, etc. It's also MONOTORING everything, and they are SENSITIVE.


Rix, thanks for your reply. Do you have a 2010/2011 Camry and hear the same thing? If so, I'd be glad to know that I'm not just hearing things.

Nossir, I hate new cars, unless they're exotics. LOL.
Some of the noise in the new ones 4 and 6 is the valvetrain. When its varying timing, it gets LOUD. When they're shifting, cam timing, ignition timing, and fuel trims all change. Just makes em loud.
I dive all older cars, newest is an 89.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I got the car back today. Toyota didn't see anything out of scope on the snap shot. I think I'm going to try midgrade or premium for a little while and see if the sound changes. If it doesn't change, then I probably am not hearing spark knock to begin with. But if it does change, then I think I'll call Toyota Corporate and let them know they have some fuel tuning issues.

My paperwork does list a T/A case number, so there is an engineering case opened with Toyota on it. Maybe this will end up precipitating a future TSB, like what happened with the MZ-engined Siennas, if enough people complain to the dealer about it.

Although this was warranty, it did end up costing me some money. I'm buying a set of new take-offs from his '11 LE model. He had them swapped for a set of the 50th Anniversary wheels when he bought his and is just now selling his otherwise new LE wheels. The ones on my car are from an Avalon, but I like the Camry OEM wheels a bit better.

 

[ffhdriver]

My '05 Avalon had piston slap which sounded a lot like pinging.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Yes, I've heard that the 2GR-FE (3.5L) V-6 engine had some piston slap issues.

 

[hypervish]

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the pining at all. But, that's just me as, I have a lot of trust in toyota, all of their cars have served me well in the past here's a few examples.. ( from my sig. on another forum)
89' Toyota Van- 296,000 miles
90' Lexus ES250- 212,000 miles 92' Toyota Corolla- 232,000 miles
94' Toyota Camry XLE- 189,000 miles (gave it to my cousin; still running strong though)
and Currently: 2000 Lexus RX300 (my daily) , 2010 Lexus RX450H (mom) , 2011 Lexus ISF (dad), 2001 Lexus IS300 (my weekend car)

I think Toyota know's what they're doing... but it's good that they gave you a case number so if for any reason something happens in the future, you don't have to worry about it being covered.

 

[CBR.worm]

My last few toyota's have pinged during shifts and at other times. One of my tundra's had bad piston slap that had no bad consequences by the time I sold it at 220K miles. It bothers me that they all seem to ping, but I think it is an effect of E10 gas combined with very stringent tuning for emissions.

Hypervish - almost 300K out of a toyota van is impressive - was that a previa? I had an '84 and '86 LE van that were both fairly unreliable and were sold by 100K. I attributed it to them being way underpowered for carrying their rated load.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Can someone post a video of a pinging sound? To this day, I still don't know what pinging sounds like.


It's a terrible sound - it's the sound of two flame fronts colliding
each other - ruining the top of the piston and its piston rings.

 

[kelpie]

Light pinging that goes away after a few seconds supposedly (according to owners manual) won't hurt anything. I would just put 89 octane in it and forget about it. Any kind of ECM reflash will result in a more retarded timing setting, which will cost you gas mileage. Colder plugs will fix the problem, also.