2010 Ford Fusion 2.5L - 8,991 mi - PUP 5w20

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Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Thanks, Satin.


Yeah, it happened at the Ford dealership. Same dealership that I've purchased multiple cars from. I always work with the same salesman, since he's an honest guy. They don't play games with me when I buy cars from them because they know I used to sell cars and I know how the business works. First car I ever bought from them, I basically "stole" from them.. lol. One thing I do well .. negotiate.

And yeah, it's too bad I can't just work directly with the mechanic. I have been able to speak directly with him in the past, and he always seemed to know what he was doing, but they've got some new service writers since they moved from their old location to their brand new facility. I was hoping things wouldn't change when that happened, but I'm thinking they have.

On a positive note - One of my coworkers heard me talking about what's going on and turned me on to her mechanic. Apparently he's an independent mechanic, certified, and specializes in Ford. She's been taking her cars to him for years. In fact, some other coworkers heard us talking about him and turns out many of them use his services too.

If things with the dealership go any more pear-shaped, I'm just going to tell them to put all the parts in boxes, and have the car towed to this independent mechanic's shop for him to finish.


I hope the best for you. The independent shop seems like a good place
smile.gif
 
That expanded story from the dealer is just appalling.

Since you've worked at selling cars, then you'll also know that service work and warranty work are often quoted at far different rates. New long block? Used long block? Come on .... At the worst, I'd expect to need a reworked head unless there was a crack in it, in which case a new head would be needed. Is there a head service nearby you can get a second opinion at? Find one and then take the head there yourself and get another "doctor" to look at it.

As for the cylinders, I'd want a closer look; sounds like you have a decent background and at least won't be spoon fed silliness to your face. It's one thing for a dealer to try to talk folks into something over the phone, but it's quite another to have the customer (with good mechanical experience) stand over the engine with the tech and ask plenty of informed questions. Makes them often rethink their recommendations. I just find it so very unlikely that the cylinders are somehow out of shape on an engine with such a great reputation for reliability. Especially with UOAs that show no concern, and no outward signs like burning oil, poor fuel economy, etc.

I always encourage folks to ask to see the official labor-allowance hours for each task, not just some tallied cash total. If you end up having to pay for a partial job, then before you pay, tell them you want to see what Ford would pay them for labor for a partial job; don't be afraid to push it. After all, if you're leaving the dealership and not returning in the future for work, you're not burning a bridge you intend to cross anyway. And it's not really you that burned the bridge; it's them for recommending such extreme measures for what it likely a simple fix. Shame on them.

I recently had some similar experiences with a local GM truck dealer for diagnosing and replacing the ABS control on my truck. The first quote was nearly $1000. After I went through the quote (prior to work) I knocked them down nearly $400 by cost-shopping the part around (same GM part from the 'net which they ended up price matching) and seeing the official labor-hour book rate for the work, which did not necessitate the extras like flushing the brakes, "new" screws, etc.


.
 
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Thanks for the well wishes guys. I'm going to give the dealership the chance to make good on the repair, so we'll see how that goes. For now, I'm prepared to have the care towed to the other shop, if needed.

In the meantime, however, I was able to visit the dealership today and talk with the service writer. She did a little backpedaling - basically what the service manager told me about how they always recommend engine replacement in an engine with high miles.. etc.. etc.. Apologized for the problem, etc..

I had her walk me back to the service area, and I had a look in the engine. All in all, it was pretty much as I expected for an L5-VE with 227,000 miles.

Cylinder 1 piston head:

... sure, there's some carbon build-up, but the amount is pretty normal for this amount of miles.

Cylinder 2 bore and piston head:

... again, some carbon on the piston, but not bad. Looks pretty even to me. Pictures don't show it, but the wear is even all the way around the cylinder.

Cylinder 3 bore and piston head:

... same as cylinder 2

Cylinder 4 piston head:

... this is really the only one that I would say looks less than ideal. The plug that I pulled out of this cylinder @ 215,000 miles had similar extra build-up on it. The car is not going through coolant, and I'm not seeing any other signs of coolant 'burning' so I have a feeling that this was either there before I bought the car, or it's due to an injector issue.


-- As far as the piston heads go - on each one there's the 'clean' spots, which I am pretty sure is due to the cleaning regimen I started on when I started getting the misfires. 2 runs with PEA, and 2 runs with Berryman B12.

Overall view of all 4:

... The mating survace is dirty, yeah.. but they should be cleaning that up when they reassemble it. Otherwise, I'd say pretty normal for the mileage.

What does everyone think?
 
What do the ridges at the top of the cylinders look like, are they even? Are they pronounced? Can you feel those scratches in the bore?

What do I think? Aside from two threads being confusing - I think the Service Manager has a legitimate point he’s afraid if he patches it together he going to end up married to the thing, and he’d be correct more often than not. There is some truth to the old wives tale that doing a “valve job” on a high mile bottom end often results in an oil burner pretty shortly afterward. I’ve seen it happen more than once just as I’ve seen it turn out fine more than once, it is a game of roulette...

That long block is about 4100.00 and change MSRP and pays something on the order of 14 hours so it seems like there is quite a bit of extra stuff in your 7100.00 quote.

If it was my car I would (if I wasn’t fixing it myself) want to get an estimate for rebuilding/rebuilt head, used engine and new engine, I’d review it line by line and weigh the cost vs warranty - then I’d probably be looking at my desire for continued involvement with this car. What is this a $6000.00 car on a good day?

I suppose you are pretty much on it for the labor to pull the head anyway, so if the head can be done fairly reasonably then you might as well put it back on and see how it goes. I’d expect them to say repeatedly that there are no guarantees...
 
cyl 2 and 3 seem to have some light vertical streaks; could you discern any gouging or is it just poor pix quality? could be nothing.

Seems very typical for that mileage. I have certainly seen worse.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
What do the ridges at the top of the cylinders look like, are they even? Are they pronounced? Can you feel those scratches in the bore?


Ridges at the top of the cylinders (I'm assuming you mean the 'ring ridges') are minimal, actually, and seemed very even.

The bore is quite smooth. Mostly what I feel is the radial machining.. the vertical lines are more discoloration than scratches. I didn't want to touch the cylinder wall too much, so as not to leave oils/acids from my skin.. so I just used my fingernails, and they didn't catch on the vertical lines.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I think the Service Manager has a legitimate point he’s afraid if he patches it together he going to end up married to the thing, and he’d be correct more often than not.


I get this. There are customers out there who will blame any problem they have on something they got from you, or something you did for them. As a business owner, I've had more than one customer claim that my software caused their computer to crash, even though there's no possible way.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
There is some truth to the old wives tale that doing a “valve job” on a high mile bottom end often results in an oil burner pretty shortly afterward. I’ve seen it happen more than once just as I’ve seen it turn out fine more than once, it is a game of roulette...


Perhaps, when the bottom end is already.. "iffy". I fail to see how one bad valve being replaced on this engine would suddenly turn it into an oil burner, when multiple UOAs show it to be wearing incredibly well, and show negligible blow-by. Not to mention it doesn't consume any measurable amount over 7,500 miles. If it had been beat on, was poorly maintained, etc.. and already starting to consume oil over an OCI, maybe...

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
If it was my car I would (if I wasn’t fixing it myself) want to get an estimate for rebuilding/rebuilt head, used engine and new engine, I’d review it line by line and weigh the cost vs warranty - then I’d probably be looking at my desire for continued involvement with this car. What is this a $6000.00 car on a good day?


I paid $5800 plus tax, etc.. for it in July 2014, with just under 178,000 miles on it, and it's been a solid daily driver, so yeah I'd say it was a $6000 car on a good day.

Right now, the head is in the machinist shop and I've asked to have them evaluate the whole head, including all valves and components, and give me their feedback regarding what they feel needs to be done, etc..

I don't see any need to replace the whole engine, when it ran great aside from this valve issue popping up.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I suppose you are pretty much on it for the labor to pull the head anyway, so if the head can be done fairly reasonably then you might as well put it back on and see how it goes. I’d expect them to say repeatedly that there are no guarantees...


Yep, my expectation too. And yep, I'm in it far enough already, and the car is in great shape overall, so I figure it's worth it. Cheaper than buying another $6000 car too.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
cyl 2 and 3 seem to have some light vertical streaks; could you discern any gouging or is it just poor pix quality? could be nothing.


As mentioned above - The vertical streaks seem more like discoloration or scuffing than anything else. Couldn't really feel them for the most part.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Seems very typical for that mileage. I have certainly seen worse.


I have as well. Heck, I've seen worse on cars with far less mileage.
 
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
What do the ridges at the top of the cylinders look like, are they even? Are they pronounced? Can you feel those scratches in the bore?


Ridges at the top of the cylinders (I'm assuming you mean the 'ring ridges') are minimal, actually, and seemed very even.

The bore is quite smooth. Mostly what I feel is the radial machining.. the vertical lines are more discoloration than scratches. I didn't want to touch the cylinder wall too much, so as not to leave oils/acids from my skin.. so I just used my fingernails, and they didn't catch on the vertical lines.


As long as you can’t feel the scratches and the ring ridges aren’t bad and are even (don’t indicate egg shaped cylinders) I’d think chances for a good result are above average. The marks toward the top of cylinder 3 about 11 o’clock are a bit concerning but if you can’t feel them...

Honestly it looks better than I expected.

Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
There is some truth to the old wives tale that doing a “valve job” on a high mile bottom end often results in an oil burner pretty shortly afterward. I’ve seen it happen more than once just as I’ve seen it turn out fine more than once, it is a game of roulette...


Perhaps, when the bottom end is already.. "iffy". I fail to see how one bad valve being replaced on this engine would suddenly turn it into an oil burner, when multiple UOAs show it to be wearing incredibly well, and show negligible blow-by. Not to mention it doesn't consume any measurable amount over 7,500 miles. If it had been beat on, was poorly maintained, etc.. and already starting to consume oil over an OCI, maybe...


I think compression readings and difference in wet and dry compression is probably the best indicator on this point.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again here. Plenty of OK UOAs on blown up motors here. I think $25.00 (or now 35.00) UOAs are of limited value...

Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
If it was my car I would (if I wasn’t fixing it myself) want to get an estimate for rebuilding/rebuilt head, used engine and new engine, I’d review it line by line and weigh the cost vs warranty - then I’d probably be looking at my desire for continued involvement with this car. What is this a $6000.00 car on a good day?


I paid $5800 plus tax, etc.. for it in July 2014, with just under 178,000 miles on it, and it's been a solid daily driver, so yeah I'd say it was a $6000 car on a good day.

Right now, the head is in the machinist shop and I've asked to have them evaluate the whole head, including all valves and components, and give me their feedback regarding what they feel needs to be done, etc..

I don’t see any need to replace the whole engine, when it ran great aside from this valve issue popping up.


Sounds like a plan. I agree if chances are good that it will be OK with a head repair and the head repair is cost effective then no need to replace the engine. FWIW it looks like FordPartsGiant sells a head assy for ~$700.00.

Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I suppose you are pretty much on it for the labor to pull the head anyway, so if the head can be done fairly reasonably then you might as well put it back on and see how it goes. I’d expect them to say repeatedly that there are no guarantees...


Yep, my expectation too. And yep, I'm in it far enough already, and the car is in great shape overall, so I figure it's worth it. Cheaper than buying another $6000 car too.


I’d always rather have my used car than someone else's...
smile.gif
 
I guess I'm rooting for a quick top-end repair and see another 250k miles out of it!

Presuming the rest of the car is in good shape, it's far cheaper to repair this ride than get a new one!
Cheaper to insure, too!
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I guess I'm rooting for a quick top-end repair and see another 250k miles out of it!


Me too! I'm actually aiming for a target of roughly 483,400 miles.. so just a hair over another 250,000 miles would get me there.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Presuming the rest of the car is in good shape, it's far cheaper to repair this ride than get a new one!
Cheaper to insure, too!


... not to mention a lot cheaper to register every year. I paid somewhere around $90 for the current year's registration. The 2014 Altima is more like $280 for a year.. and was something like $480 for its first year's registration.
 
Good thing you didn't buy that Charger on copart. So be happy about that because that could have been a major headache. I like reading the updates here and am optimistic this will turn out just fine. It's good you were able to take a look at it all a part and take pics. So back on the road in a week?
 
Right now, the head is at a machine shop being evaluated/machined. I'm supposed to get an update call tomorrow morning.

.. and Satin, you're not kidding about that. And depending on what the machine shop says, it's certainly possible I'll have it back in a week. I certainly HOPE so. It's been almost 2 weeks now that they've had the car.

Plus, my mom wants her MR2 back.
 
Just a quick update. When I spoke last with the service manager, I had told him that if the machine shop says that they can do everything necessary to get the head back into solid working condition for $200 or less, he shouldn't even call me, but just tell them to go ahead with the work.

Apparently, he "got them down to $200" on everything and they're in the process of doing the necessary repair work. I was told I should have the car back next week.
 
$200 for head work isn't a bad price these days, if the work is decent.
Plus the cost of the engine teardown and putting back together.

Looking forward to a good report!

What do you want to bet the next UOA has high Si from dirt and/or sealant?
 
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Indeed, dnewton. I thought $200 was very reasonable. I'm anxious to get the car back and have a look at the workmanship.

I would not be surprised if the Si is elevated in my next UOA. I actually am planning to run a shorter than normal OCI on the oil, and will definitely be running a UOA on it. Also, I am assuming that they will be changing the oil as part of the re-assembly process, since it's been opened up, but who the heck knows. If they do not, then I'll probably run it for a day or two and then do an oil and filter change to catch the initial contaminants.
 
I would recommend a few quick OCIs. First maybe just a few days. Second maybe at a thousand miles.
Use a good high-eff filter like a Fram TG (I'm not brand loyal here, it's just got a very good eff unit and easily found at W/M).
Use any decent API cheap dino oil you can find for these flush events. (ST is good stuff; others as well ...)


The go back to whatever plan you decide.
 
Not a bad idea. It's a shame I don't still have the drain from my last OCI - It was in good enough shape, I could have actually used it for a quick short cleaning run. Ah well - SuperTech is cheap enough I guess.

I'm curious to see if they bother changing the oil as part of the rebuild. If they left my existing fill in, I'll probably drive it for a day and then change it out. If they put new oil in, then I'll give it 2 or 3 days.

I also have 17 filters in my stash for this car, so I'll most likely just grab one of those for each of my short runs. Not including the Fram Ultras in the stash, I have Motorcraft FL400s, Hasting LF-483, Federated (Hastings) LF-483F, Bosch 72161WS & 72143WS, and Valvoline VO25.
 
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