2009 VW Jetta SportWagen TDI

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
What does the old jetta tdi get on the freeway in the real world? IMO the new EPA #s for most (all?) cars are worthless. For me I like to know the real world freeway mileage. Thanks!

The old figures would be about 15% higher for city and 10% higher for highway. Therefore, the new Jetta should be about the same overall, maybe a bit better on the highway.

 

[saaber1]

one article said there was a 12% efficiency increase. But it appears at the cost of lots of complexity. From the tdi thread linked above:

"I got to drive one and take a look under the hood.
140 hp and 240 ft lb of torque
3 cats, a pariculate filter, an exhaust throttle body, 2 egr systems and 20 pounds of boost along with 3 fuel pumps and 180 bar at the injectors makes this a complicated system to say the least ,but it drives fantastic!"

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

2009 Jetta TDI DSG: 29/40
2009 Jetta TDI MT: 30/41


The Prius is in comparison 48/45.

Draw your own conclusions.


How about you normalize it for us on a MPG per cubic foot, MPG per hp, MPG per lb-ft torque, hp/lb, MPG per 1000 lbs curb weight and MPG per base price (fully stripped).

Then we can draw come real conclusions - after all, a lot of folks were shocked to realize that the prius is more on the order of a camry in terms of interior size... not a corolla or yaris. Such comparisons might shed some useful light in terms of utility and cost efficiency.

Thanks,

JMH

 

[JHZR2]

Well... no response. So I did come calculations:

Assuming what I found at yahoo autos is correct:

Jetta Wagon TDI base:
140hp/235 lb-ft
$25775
33 ft^3 cargo
92 ft^3 passenger
125 ft^3 total
30/41 MPG EPA
2.0L

Toyota Prius Base
177 hp/377 lb-ft (gas + electric)
$21100
16 ft^3 cargo
96 ft^3 passenger
112 ft^3 total
48/45 EPA
1.5L

Toyota Camry Hybrid
333 hp/337 lb-ft (gas + electric)
$25350
11 ft^3 cargo
101 ft^3 passenger
112 ft^3 total
33/34 EPA
2.4L

So, lets set this up as MPG per n where n is a variable. Let's make the results as x/y for city/highway. The results will be given as Jetta; Prius; Camry Hybrid and are as follows:

MPG/HP:0.21/0.29;0.27/0.25;0.10/0.10
MPG/TQ:0.13/0.17;0.13/0.12;0.10/0.10
MPG/k$:1.16/1.59;2.27/2.13;1.30/1.34
MPG/cargo:0.90/1.24;3.00/2.81;3.00/3.09
MPG/passenger:0.32/0.44;0.49/0.46;0.32/0.34
MPG/volume:0.24/0.33;0.42/0.40;0.29/0.30
MPG@Normalized Volume (100ft^3): 24/32;42/40;29/30
MPG/engine L:15/20.50;32/30;13.75/14.16

So, let's see... the winner is:
MPG/HP (higher is better): Prius (city), Jetta (highway)
MPG/TQ (higher is better): Prius/Jetta tie (city), Jetta (highway)
MPG/k$ (higher is better)rius
MPG/cargo (lower is better): Jetta
MPG/passenger(lower is better): Camry/Jetta tie (city), Camry (highway)
MPG/volume (lower is better): Jetta (city), Camry (highway)
MPG@normalized vol (higher is better): Prius
MPG/engine L (higher is better): Prius

So the rationale is:
MPG/hp - lower the number, the better youre doing per output power (take the inverse and you get more HP per MPG)
MPG/tq - lower the number, the better youre doing per output torque (take the inverse and you get more torque per MPG)
MPG/k$ - the higher the number the more fuel economy youre buying, and the better value you are getting within reason
MPG/cargo - the lower the number, the more efficient you are on a volume of cargo handling basis
MPG/passenger - the lower the number, the more efficent you are on a volume of passenger space basis
MPG/volume - the lower the number, the more efficient you are on a basis of what you can haul on a total basis - take the inverse and you get more volume hauled per MPG.
MPG@normalized volume - since all volumes vary, let's look at the numbers per 100 ft^3.
MPG/engine L - the higher the number, the better your engine is roughly on a per size (and notionally per fuel input) basis.


So, overall, it looks like the prius is generally the winner, and Id say the Jetta is second place, with the Camry in third. However, that doesnt say it all. If you need volume, the jetta is a winner. If you want passenger space, the camry is a winner - the prius isnt really a contender on the metric of how much cargo or passsenger space you get, though for what you do have, it does great. It seems that overall for a practical car, the jetta wins, for a decent, super-efficient car, the prius wins.

And I think we all knew that already...

JMH

 

[Volvohead]

Was just at the dealer over the new Sportwagen TDI.

Am told it is only a few weeks away from sale (they're taking reservation deposits), and that they will have a demo in for sales training in a week or so.

They are also claiming 55mpg/hwy. Having owned a 1980 VW diesel that did routinely pull 60mpg, this sounds possible. But even at 40mpg, I'd still take one over a Prius. Torque is a nice thing.

We'll definitely be trading our 2.5 Jetta on one this fall. The monthly gas bill on our 2.5 is already more than the car payment. Plus we prefer wagons, and this is a handsome one that should be a blast to drive.

Better still is a diesel hybrid version for 2009-2010 that they claim can pull 70+mpg, but we can't wait that long.

 

[2002 Maxima SE]

I drove the Jetta Sedan TDI yesterday.

I liked the TDI, only a hint of "dieseling" at idle and at speed all you could hear were the injectors. Smooth delivery of power and had no problems passing from 60 mph to 80 mph. This surprised me. I've never driven a diesel and was always under the impression power was down low and it would "run out of steam" as it got higher in the rpm range. I guess it has a lot to do with the gearing, but the car performed well.

 

[Volvohead]

We just placed a deposit/order last night on a S-Wagen TDI. They're estimating deliveries in late August - early September. Word is, dealers are not getting that many for MY '09. My guess is allotments will be spoken for before deliveries start.

Fortunately, there is no "premium over MSRP" mentality about these, like there was with the Prius. All very low key.

VW is giving longish power train warranties on these, which is not so bad, either.

The sales guy told us about VW's "hankie" test, to show how much cleaner these new diesels are. Apparently, someone held a white handkerchief over the running tailpipe for a minute, and you can place it to your nose and not see or smell a thing. Whatever.

Nice to see someone out there still giving diesels a good pitch in the US.

I know from past VW diesels that the mileage on them only goes up once they are fully broken in. So the EPA estimates are very conservative.

 

[Drivebelt]

Here's an interesting gas mileage showdown between the Prius and Jetta TDI.

edmonds

The Jetta beat the Prius in 2/3 gas mileage tests -- it was a 2005 TDI. My understanding is that the new BlueTDI for 2009 actually gets better gas mileage than the previous TDI like that 2005 version. So, the TDI should likely perform much better in real life than what the 30/41 EPA mpg ratings suggest if that is true.

 

[Volvohead]

Most people (including the EPA) don't understand that it often takes well over 10k miles before a diesel breaks in and reaches its optimal fuel economy.

My understanding is that EPA economy testing does not go past 4k, which is why many diesels significantly over-perform their estimates.

The most amazing thing to me about the '09 TDI engine (besides that it doesn't need an urea tank to meet BIN 5), is the common rail injection. Hopefully, it won't need the caviar grade oils that the earlier TDIs demanded.

 

[Volvohead]

We're still waiting on our order on one of these.

Our dealer tells us the allocation is only one (1) per dealer, per month, for now. I'm sure that will eventually change.

Where one is on the list seems to be a big deal at the moment. Looks like nothing for us until at least October.

In the meantime, it looks like there is a $1,300 tax credit for this model.

Anyone have one of these yet?

 

[wavinwayne]

My wife & I are considering trading in her '04 Mercedes SUV for one of these. It'll be interesting to see what the VW dealer's numbers will look like on this deal. I'm guessing we may take a $10K hit, but my wife isn't all that crazy about the Benz anymore anyway.

 

[Volvohead]

FWIW, someone on another site posted the following dealer response about the delay:

Quote:
Thank you for contacting us. Right now our dealership is selling the cars at the MSRP price, unlike many who are marking the cars up. We have had numerous calls and emails in regards to the 2009 TDI recently. Most of the people are coming in and placing orders due to the fact that Volkswagen is only sending 4 Jetta sedans per month to the dealers starting in August and only 4 Sportwagons per dealer for all of 2008. One of the two Jetta production plants suffered from a fire in Germany recently and now production is way behind schedule. That is the reason behind low production numbers. And with the amount of orders being placed, it may be difficult to get a non-reserved TDI so soon. Thank you once again for contacting XXXX Volkswagen.


Not sure if there is anything to this. But we ordered very early, and should be among the first four at our dealer in any event.

If you haven't ordered already, and this is true, you're probably looking at early to mid '09 before a sportwagen is available. I've also read stories of dealers slipping in high margin dealer installed "extras" and "added warranties" on '09 TDIs, so be on guard.

The early '09 TDI owner response (among the very few who have sedans) has been extremely positive.

 

[saaber1]

It's worth looking at various dealers also as some people have bought them right off the lot with no ordering. Apparently there is an allocation of cars that is separate from the ordered cars. I bet these would be very few and far between but can't hurt to ask.

 

[Volvohead]

This is more likely with TDI sedans, where delivery volume from port has been much better.

I'm not aware of any TDI sportwagens coming in around here that haven't been long spoken for.

I am reading lots of horror stories about dealer pricing and premium games and bidding wars among multiple buyers on the floor. One guy claims his order was diverted ("stolen") from port by VWoA for use as a rep vehicle.

Speaking with our dealer today, we are told our order is #3 there and they only ask MSRP. So we should see ours sometime before year's end. He estimated 4-5 mos to delivery from order date. He also confirmed the factory fire as the reason for the logjam.

We'll hang with our order, as we aren't in a urgent hurry. But folks who may not see delivery until after early '09 might want to wait and check out the Outback diesel that should be out by then.

The bigger concern with these may be servicing. The limited volume is not going to give the techs much early opportunity to get hands-on familiar with what is a fairly complex emissions system.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
But folks who may not see delivery until after early '09 might want to wait and check out the Outback diesel that should be out by then.

The bigger concern with these may be servicing. The limited volume is not going to give the techs much early opportunity to get hands-on familiar with what is a fairly complex emissions system.


Re the servicing I think you are right on. The dealers are horribly slow to learn new technology and usually you have to educate them about your car (sad). FYI some tdi-specific mechnanics for your state can be found here and some of them would get over the learning curve much faster I would guess: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=130044

Man, I hope that subaru diesel comes out that fast, I would be all over it! Our volvo V70xc is probably going to take like 20 more years to die the way it is going so we don't need it but the idea of a boxer diesel is darned intriguing to me. And in europe some are saying 50 mpg for that car.

 

[Volvohead]

The Subie is very interesting diesel. Certainly worth a look.

But having had an old Rabbit diesel over 20 years ago, I've a soft spot for the VWs. I understand the new TDI is actually quite quick . . . almost GTI like . . . and quiet.

Still, neither will hold up like a well assembled Volvo can. Had Volvo come out with a diesel before 2010-11, I'd be all over it.

Having ordered white, our order was delayed even further. The factory delayed taking white orders for a couple weeks due to a paint color changeover. Crazy VW.

 

[saaber1]

Reading some of the tdi forums is pretty amazing. People say things like, "I am planning on getting 600,000 miles out of this car".

I know what you are saying about vw's. They have personality and are fun. Bought a new GTI one month ago and am constantly making up excuses about why I need to drive to the store or to wherever. Will your tdi be a manual, automatic, or dsg?

 

[Volvohead]

This one's for the Mrs., so it's a DSG 6-speed.

 

[saaber1]

The DSG with that engine torque will be a fantastic combination. You are going to love it I think. I have taken to driving the DSG in manual only mode now almost all the time and love it! Only problem is now my wife and I fight over who gets to drive it! : ) Oh well...

 

[Volvohead]

So here is what VW and the dealers are doing . . . at least my dealer:

Sportwagen TDIs are coming in, one at a time (with weeks in between). They are not what the dealer or customers ordered, but what VW decides to send them. The dealer then goes down the list, offering the vehicle to each person in line until someone takes it.

We got a call yesterday, offering us a black on black one (unsure of trans type) w/o sunroof. We turned it down and are sticking with our order.

VW has really screwed up this roll out. They could at least deliver the orders placed to the originating dealers. Another dealer ordered this black on black one, but isn't going to see it. VW is delivering vehicles without regard.

Not a good way to keep customers happy.