I wouldn't compare the oils based on the MSDS.
2007 Honda Civic, 9,502 Valvoline Synpower 0w20 SN
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Originally Posted By: Cooper
That statement is based solely on the PQI America VOA of the 5w30 versions.....
Ok thanks. I would be careful drawing any conclusions based on PQI chart simply because they are for a different grade. There can be noticeable variances in the add packs between 0/5w-20/30 weights. 0w-20s especially tend to vary from the 5w-30 weights quite a bit.
For what it's worth, I tried to get the latest PDS from Ashland for Napa and after some back and forth, got the one that's listed in that linked post. The Napa seems to be a decent oil pretty close to VSP, especially for the price. Actually, chances are that the 0w-20 weight might be the exact same formulation because the PDS date on the Napa oil is very old and VSP has been revised since then.
Originally Posted By: dparm
I wouldn't compare the oils based on the MSDS.
I agree....the MSDS reference was restricted to "base" oils only, not the final formulation.
The final formulations, compared based on PDS of the two, are not the exact same, but they are much closer than they are apart. So I am thinking the add pack is probably slightly different between the two.
For speculation - Economies of scale suggest that the most room for squeezing more profits is the add pack while it's probably cheaper to procure the same base oil mixes (kinda like how group buys allows some pricing benefits). Blending base oils with additives is where they might be able to "cut corners" and sell it for less to Napa while still maintaining profits.
That statement is based solely on the PQI America VOA of the 5w30 versions.....
Ok thanks. I would be careful drawing any conclusions based on PQI chart simply because they are for a different grade. There can be noticeable variances in the add packs between 0/5w-20/30 weights. 0w-20s especially tend to vary from the 5w-30 weights quite a bit.
For what it's worth, I tried to get the latest PDS from Ashland for Napa and after some back and forth, got the one that's listed in that linked post. The Napa seems to be a decent oil pretty close to VSP, especially for the price. Actually, chances are that the 0w-20 weight might be the exact same formulation because the PDS date on the Napa oil is very old and VSP has been revised since then.
Originally Posted By: dparm
I wouldn't compare the oils based on the MSDS.
I agree....the MSDS reference was restricted to "base" oils only, not the final formulation.
The final formulations, compared based on PDS of the two, are not the exact same, but they are much closer than they are apart. So I am thinking the add pack is probably slightly different between the two.
For speculation - Economies of scale suggest that the most room for squeezing more profits is the add pack while it's probably cheaper to procure the same base oil mixes (kinda like how group buys allows some pricing benefits). Blending base oils with additives is where they might be able to "cut corners" and sell it for less to Napa while still maintaining profits.
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Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
Some say they might be using non-detectable (with consumer OAs) additives.
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
Some say they might be using non-detectable (with consumer OAs) additives.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
I disagree. Honda engines love lubrication. The lack of moly in this example proves that a Honda engine doesn't need moly whatsoever. The wear metals are all below universal averages.
So Greg you are obviously incorrect in your belief that Hondas love moly and the wear rates shown in this example actual prove the exact opposite,and Honda engines love a lubricant without any moly.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Looks good. Synpower seems to be a sleeper oil.
I have to agree with this post. Although vsp is never on sale so I've only used the white bottle I can honestly say I've never read,nor heard anything bad about valvolines engine oils.
I read 1 horror story about max life tranny fluid but in all my years I've yet to hear or read about valvoline or problems with it.
What's funny is royal purple seems to have a similar formulation and I've seen it written as though that's some type of derogatory remark yet in use I've never seen a valvoline sludger nor have I seen a uoa that showed for example the high iron readings that Mobil 1 is famous for.
Never heard an increased acoustics comment with valvoline either.
I think I'll start keeping my eyes peeled for valvoline specials. Since there is no moly perhaps mos2 added to it can make it something very special......or the addition of mos2 will gain nothing.
Dunno. Sounds like my next test in my girls minivan.
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
I disagree. Honda engines love lubrication. The lack of moly in this example proves that a Honda engine doesn't need moly whatsoever. The wear metals are all below universal averages.
So Greg you are obviously incorrect in your belief that Hondas love moly and the wear rates shown in this example actual prove the exact opposite,and Honda engines love a lubricant without any moly.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Looks good. Synpower seems to be a sleeper oil.
I have to agree with this post. Although vsp is never on sale so I've only used the white bottle I can honestly say I've never read,nor heard anything bad about valvolines engine oils.
I read 1 horror story about max life tranny fluid but in all my years I've yet to hear or read about valvoline or problems with it.
What's funny is royal purple seems to have a similar formulation and I've seen it written as though that's some type of derogatory remark yet in use I've never seen a valvoline sludger nor have I seen a uoa that showed for example the high iron readings that Mobil 1 is famous for.
Never heard an increased acoustics comment with valvoline either.
I think I'll start keeping my eyes peeled for valvoline specials. Since there is no moly perhaps mos2 added to it can make it something very special......or the addition of mos2 will gain nothing.
Dunno. Sounds like my next test in my girls minivan.
To give VSP all credits for extremely low wear metals in this Honda Civic is a little off. I think this particular Civic engine is wearing nicely with VSP or PP or M1. The only way to find out is the same Civic is now using different brand 0W20 with similar OCI and driving conditions, then next UOA will prove either VSP is the main factor or the engine.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To give VSP all credits for extremely low wear metals in this Honda Civic is a little off. I think this particular Civic engine is wearing nicely with VSP or PP or M1. The only way to find out is the same Civic is now using different brand 0W20 with similar OCI and driving conditions, then next UOA will prove either VSP is the main factor or the engine.
I am pretty sure the VSP should get some credit for going this distance with these low wear metals. It seems if you don't give it credit, you have a bias of some nature. Have you seen the most recent UOA's from the same motor? Some look a lot better than others.
So, yes, most oils will do their job. Valvoline did it's job without breaking down in this case for a nice long OCI, so I think it should get the credit here as well as the R18 being easy on the oil as well.....
To give VSP all credits for extremely low wear metals in this Honda Civic is a little off. I think this particular Civic engine is wearing nicely with VSP or PP or M1. The only way to find out is the same Civic is now using different brand 0W20 with similar OCI and driving conditions, then next UOA will prove either VSP is the main factor or the engine.
I am pretty sure the VSP should get some credit for going this distance with these low wear metals. It seems if you don't give it credit, you have a bias of some nature. Have you seen the most recent UOA's from the same motor? Some look a lot better than others.
So, yes, most oils will do their job. Valvoline did it's job without breaking down in this case for a nice long OCI, so I think it should get the credit here as well as the R18 being easy on the oil as well.....
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
The piston slippers on the FIT 1.5L are moly coated (blast peened) - so they have it already. The Cam followers are rollerised. I would say Tcains like moly - but whatever high end, non metal FM valvoline is using instead works inn the 0w20 better than anything i've run including very very good shell products. Did I say Im happy and impressed?
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
The piston slippers on the FIT 1.5L are moly coated (blast peened) - so they have it already. The Cam followers are rollerised. I would say Tcains like moly - but whatever high end, non metal FM valvoline is using instead works inn the 0w20 better than anything i've run including very very good shell products. Did I say Im happy and impressed?
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
The piston slippers on the FIT 1.5L are moly coated (blast peened) - so they have it already. The Cam followers are rollerised. I would say Tcains like moly - but whatever high end, non metal FM valvoline is using instead works inn the 0w20 better than anything i've run including very very good shell products. Did I say Im happy and impressed?
What are your experiences with the VSP 0w20? Just curious....
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
The piston slippers on the FIT 1.5L are moly coated (blast peened) - so they have it already. The Cam followers are rollerised. I would say Tcains like moly - but whatever high end, non metal FM valvoline is using instead works inn the 0w20 better than anything i've run including very very good shell products. Did I say Im happy and impressed?
What are your experiences with the VSP 0w20? Just curious....
Near colourless going down the funnel. Engine revs quick and "free". Startup and run Noise O.K. The biggest noticeable improvement over QSUD (a DANG GOOD OIL) is 300 more usable RPM off the bottom of the tach; car will now lug and run "cleanly" and apparently frictionless in the 1600 > 1900 rpm range. The oil feels really slick and the engine well lubed at low rpm/high load. Ashland put some kind of special sauce in that mix
The car is a 5spd manual FIT 1.5L.
To me, not liking Valvoline Synpower simple because it contains no moly shows a bias based on a preconceived notion that a quality oil must contain it to be effective. Clearly in this report 0w20 Synpower is working splendidly, and doing so over a substantial interval.
wish they sold this at my local walmart. Ive been always been a synpower fan since i tried it about 5 years back. It made my engine run soo smooth.
Our local Walmarts have always sold it, but the 0W-20 flavor was typically in quarts only. Just recently, jugs of 0W-20 VSP have been showing up, and at competitive prices (~$25). I may try it once I burn through the small stash of other oil I have at the moment.
I went back to the Epping , NH wally and bought 3 more jugs from the same batch
IIRC ~ 25 bucks for 5qt jugs. Now I must decide if the '11 Subaru Forester deserves it. The hydraulic chain tensoiners on it have been acting a bit iffy of late.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
The piston slippers on the FIT 1.5L are moly coated (blast peened) - so they have it already. The Cam followers are rollerised. I would say Tcains like moly - but whatever high end, non metal FM valvoline is using instead works inn the 0w20 better than anything i've run including very very good shell products. Did I say Im happy and impressed?
Good to hear.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I dont like the fact that there is no moly...and Hondas love moly. This oil did excellent! But Ill stick with my PP 0w20 for my Honda.
The piston slippers on the FIT 1.5L are moly coated (blast peened) - so they have it already. The Cam followers are rollerised. I would say Tcains like moly - but whatever high end, non metal FM valvoline is using instead works inn the 0w20 better than anything i've run including very very good shell products. Did I say Im happy and impressed?
Good to hear.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
...
I find it interesting that SynPower is generally not regarded as an extended drain lube yet here it is still serviceable at nearly 10k. It must hold its residual TBN well.
This is an excellent UOA, but it does not suggest that Synpower is an extended drain oil. The Honda maintenance minder assumes a conventional lubricant, so in theory something like VWB would work just as well.
...
I find it interesting that SynPower is generally not regarded as an extended drain lube yet here it is still serviceable at nearly 10k. It must hold its residual TBN well.
This is an excellent UOA, but it does not suggest that Synpower is an extended drain oil. The Honda maintenance minder assumes a conventional lubricant, so in theory something like VWB would work just as well.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
No, sodium is part of the detergent/dispersant pack for the most part. Valvoline is widely believed to use a lot of anti-wear agents in their oils that do not show up on cheap analysis. Their add packs are always yawners on paper here but the results are almost always stellar.
I find it interesting that SynPower is generally not regarded as an extended drain lube yet here it is still serviceable at nearly 10k. It must hold its residual TBN well.
Actually for a 2007 Civic to run 9k+ on the OLM generally means easy driving (lots of highway), so I'm not that impressed with the TBN. The OLM is calibrated for conventional or blend 5w20. My driving is mostly highway and my 2011 Civic only goes ~6,800 miles by 5% on the OLM. Great wear numbers though, and good stable viscosity.
My last UOA was from OAI, M1 0w20 with a 5.4 TBN after 6,800 mi and 5% on the OLM. I'd expect M1 0w20 to have higher TBN in the OP's car as well. I'm not bashing Valvoline, not everyone wants long-drain oil, but I think the consensus that other oils are more suited for long drains is correct.
No, sodium is part of the detergent/dispersant pack for the most part. Valvoline is widely believed to use a lot of anti-wear agents in their oils that do not show up on cheap analysis. Their add packs are always yawners on paper here but the results are almost always stellar.
I find it interesting that SynPower is generally not regarded as an extended drain lube yet here it is still serviceable at nearly 10k. It must hold its residual TBN well.
Actually for a 2007 Civic to run 9k+ on the OLM generally means easy driving (lots of highway), so I'm not that impressed with the TBN. The OLM is calibrated for conventional or blend 5w20. My driving is mostly highway and my 2011 Civic only goes ~6,800 miles by 5% on the OLM. Great wear numbers though, and good stable viscosity.
My last UOA was from OAI, M1 0w20 with a 5.4 TBN after 6,800 mi and 5% on the OLM. I'd expect M1 0w20 to have higher TBN in the OP's car as well. I'm not bashing Valvoline, not everyone wants long-drain oil, but I think the consensus that other oils are more suited for long drains is correct.
Does anyone remember a better UOA on any oil for a 10K oci run-?
I don't think so
I don't think so
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