2002 Grand Prix 3.1L, 4T65E trans slow 1st to 2nd shift

[92saturnsl2]

Helping a co-worker out with an old '02 Grand Prix SE 3.1L, 210K miles. He bought the car for $700 and his complaint is 1st to 2nd gear is slow or non-existent at times (especially when cold).

He brought it to me to put on the lift and look it over thoroughly. Not a bad car for what he paid-- engine is great, no leaks other than valve cover gaskets, rust is typical for a car of this age for this area, nothing structural.

I suggested fluid/filter change and did just that, reset adaptives in a scan tool. No change. Taking a test drive after the service, the first pull out of the driveway on to a major road, he ran up to 4.5K rpm or so before letting off the throttle, wouldn't shift. Easing off the throttle didn't prompt the shift to second, just time-- it finally shifted into 2nd. After that, the 1-2 shift got progressively better but still very delayed; at least driveable. Scan tool reports about 0.25 seconds shift time between 2-3-4, but I get no reading on the 1-2 shift, probably because it takes so long. I should note that the PCM is commanding the 2nd gear shift at the appropriate time.

Trans fluid that came out of it was very unordinary. Clearly used (brownish-red color), magnet was caked with the usual fine debris, but nothing worth noting at the bottom of the pan.

Any ideas from the tramsission experts here? Just trying to help the guy out, this isn't a money maker.

 

[Rand]

@clinebarger might have some ideas?

 

[Brian123]

I would at least Flush out all of the old Trans Fluid. What fluid did you put back in?

 

[92saturnsl2]

I would at least Flush out all of the old Trans Fluid. What fluid did you put back in?

Dex III variant. Given the condition of the old fluid, I doubt this is fluid related and I don't want to waste the guy's money.

 

[Brian123]

Dex III variant. Given the condition of the old fluid, I doubt this is fluid related and I don't want to waste the guy's money.

This Transmission hold like 10 quarts of fluid, a gallon of DexIII from Walmart is like $20.00 a gallon
Get either 2 or 3 gallons and flush the old fluid out, it is worth a shot.

 

[92saturnsl2]

This Transmission hold like 10 quarts of fluid, a gallon of DexIII from Walmart is like $20.00 a gallon
Get either 2 or 3 gallons and flush the old fluid out, it is worth a shot.

With all due respect, this isn't a fluid related failure/problem- the old fluid was in decent condition. Remember it's a hydraulic fluid after all, nothing magical going on with the fluid. Replaced 4-1/2 qts of fluid (about 1/3 capacity) with no change. I have no interest in wasting the guy's money, even if it's only another $20-40 in fluid not accounting for my time. The 4T65E have their quirks (I've owned a couple), hoping for someone with knowledge of these (and this particular issue) to chime in.

 

[LenZee]

With those miles on a already iffy transmission behind a V8:
https://imgflip.com/i/elmp7
"I wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole"

 

[92saturnsl2]

With those miles on a already iffy transmission behind a V8:
https://imgflip.com/i/elmp7
"I wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole"

Are you bored?

 

[LenZee]

Are you bored?

Nope, Just wouldn't touch that with a 10ft pole because when it fails quickly with the clean fluid you will get the blame.

 

[eljefino]

There's a shift kit for these trannies that fixes sluggish solenoids. I thought they were more for the snappy 2-3 shift but might help your problem too. Bonus is the kit only needs the bottom pan dropped so it's DIY friendly.

https://transgo.com/product-details/sk-4t65e/

 

[ls1mike]

Transgo shift kit helped a couple of my 4T65Es.

 

[clinebarger]

@clinebarger might have some ideas?

210K on a 4T65E....Likely needs a full rebuild. Trans ran hot for 160,000 miles before acting up on the original Dex III.

The 1-2 got better because the PCM started adding pressure to compensate.....Can this be simply because the 1-2 Accumulator? It can be at the beginning but can quickly turn into a burnt clutch if not addressed.

Haven't built a 4T60/4T65 in a while....The vehicles they come in are not worth the cost of a good thorough build & corners WILL be cut otherwise!

 

[Slick3914]

It's toast...and a miracle that trans made it to 210K.

 

[fantastic]

Transmissions are foreign to me (disclaimer). However, my opinion is finding a good lower mileage transmission would be, what I would consider, the only viable option. At least the junkyard ones would come with a 30-90 day warranty? 210k is a good life out of that vintage transmission. Sounds like the owner isn't out much if abandoned.

 

[97prizm]

Helping a co-worker out with an old '02 Grand Prix SE 3.1L, 210K miles. He bought the car for $700 and his complaint is 1st to 2nd gear is slow or non-existent at times (especially when cold).

He brought it to me to put on the lift and look it over thoroughly. Not a bad car for what he paid-- engine is great, no leaks other than valve cover gaskets, rust is typical for a car of this age for this area, nothing structural.

I suggested fluid/filter change and did just that, reset adaptives in a scan tool. No change. Taking a test drive after the service, the first pull out of the driveway on to a major road, he ran up to 4.5K rpm or so before letting off the throttle, wouldn't shift. Easing off the throttle didn't prompt the shift to second, just time-- it finally shifted into 2nd. After that, the 1-2 shift got progressively better but still very delayed; at least driveable. Scan tool reports about 0.25 seconds shift time between 2-3-4, but I get no reading on the 1-2 shift, probably because it takes so long. I should note that the PCM is commanding the 2nd gear shift at the appropriate time.

Trans fluid that came out of it was very unordinary. Clearly used (brownish-red color), magnet was caked with the usual fine debris, but nothing worth noting at the bottom of the pan.

Any ideas from the tramsission experts here? Just trying to help the guy out, this isn't a money maker.

Looks like from digging that the shift solenoid is a known failure point on various Pontiac models. I Googled "Pontiac Grand Am no shift first to second. " Several pages came up and a shift solenoid was mentioned quite frequently.

 

[willbur]

Helping a co-worker out with an old '02 Grand Prix SE 3.1L, 210K miles. He bought the car for $700 and his complaint is 1st to 2nd gear is slow or non-existent at times (especially when cold).

He brought it to me to put on the lift and look it over thoroughly. Not a bad car for what he paid-- engine is great, no leaks other than valve cover gaskets, rust is typical for a car of this age for this area, nothing structural.

I suggested fluid/filter change and did just that, reset adaptives in a scan tool. No change. Taking a test drive after the service, the first pull out of the driveway on to a major road, he ran up to 4.5K rpm or so before letting off the throttle, wouldn't shift. Easing off the throttle didn't prompt the shift to second, just time-- it finally shifted into 2nd. After that, the 1-2 shift got progressively better but still very delayed; at least driveable. Scan tool reports about 0.25 seconds shift time between 2-3-4, but I get no reading on the 1-2 shift, probably because it takes so long. I should note that the PCM is commanding the 2nd gear shift at the appropriate time.

Trans fluid that came out of it was very unordinary. Clearly used (brownish-red color), magnet was caked with the usual fine debris, but nothing worth noting at the bottom of the pan.

Any ideas from the tramsission experts here? Just trying to help the guy out, this isn't a money maker.

Kudos to you for helping someone out.

 

[92saturnsl2]

There's a shift kit for these trannies that fixes sluggish solenoids. I thought they were more for the snappy 2-3 shift but might help your problem too. Bonus is the kit only needs the bottom pan dropped so it's DIY friendly.

https://transgo.com/product-details/sk-4t65e/

I had a 2000 Bonneville SSEi with the 4T65E-HD. I installed the trans-go kit when I bought it (130K) and it made a noticeable improvement in overall shift quality/firmness, but I've never heard of the Transgo fixing a 1-2 shift problem on these.

Toward the end when I sold it (170K-ish) I could tell the transmission would be Achilles heel on the car. I had all sorts of trouble with the torque converter lock-up toward the end despite religious maintenance and fluid changes. Looking back, I should have just replaced the transmission with a high quality rebuild, everything else about the car was awesome, especially the performance once can get out of a 3800-SC with little money.

210K on a 4T65E....Likely needs a full rebuild. Trans ran hot for 160,000 miles before acting up on the original Dex III.

The 1-2 got better because the PCM started adding pressure to compensate.....Can this be simply because the 1-2 Accumulator? It can be at the beginning but can quickly turn into a burnt clutch if not addressed.

Haven't built a 4T60/4T65 in a while....The vehicles they come in are not worth the cost of a good thorough build & corners WILL be cut otherwise!

I think you're right and he's settled on the fact that the juice isn't worth the squeeze; real transmission work. The $70 transgo kit is about the cost of a fluid change, so he might try that. Hopefully he can limp it long enough to get his $700 out of it.

 

[clinebarger]

Looks like from digging that the shift solenoid is a known failure point on various Pontiac models. I Googled "Pontiac Grand Am no shift first to second. " Several pages came up and a shift solenoid was mentioned quite frequently.

Grand Am's had a 4T40E/4T45E & are known to burn/overheat Solenoid A. Different unit than a 4T65E.

 

[CoachRoss07]

Replace 1-2, 2-3 shift solenoids in the valve body on the driver side. Also some of the older 4T65s needed a new wiring harness in the valve body as well. It is somewhat of a job to do pulling axle as well as disconnecting motor mounts pulling drivers wheel, axle and such but will make worlds of difference. Look up the p1811 code and this will get you exactly the information your looking at. With a OBD 2 scanner you will most likely find this in the history of the TCM.

But until he can fix this just tell him when he feels its fixing to shift, just simply let off the gas completely and it will shift, then get back on the accelerator. Same process for the 2-3 shift. Keeps from slipping the clutches, burning it up.


Make sure you get the 2002 and older solenoids and harnesses. The 2003s were different, slightly. May need to find that harness too while you're already in there.