2002 Accord V6, 4K OCI, 17K vehicle, M1-5W30
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If you wanted to get your hands dirty one option would be to pull the spark plugs and check for an odd ball looking one. That would point out a bad injector. Just a thought. But at 17k miles I would be threatening the dealer with the BBB or Honda corporate to make them check it out. If they are any kind of mechanics they don't need a dash light to find the problem.
Fuel contamination is the reason for the outragous oxidation/nitration numbers ....
This excessive fuel dilution has destroyed the ability of the oil to protect under high pressures. The iron you see is mostly from the valvtrain - you don't see chrome from the piston rings only because they are moly coated in this engine! Some of that 74 ppm of moly is from the rings and not the add pack of the oil....
Take this vehicle in ASAP, along with a copy of the analysis and make them fix it!!! No oil will work under these conditions. I'd also install a block heater or a strip heater for the oil pan ....
Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
This excessive fuel dilution has destroyed the ability of the oil to protect under high pressures. The iron you see is mostly from the valvtrain - you don't see chrome from the piston rings only because they are moly coated in this engine! Some of that 74 ppm of moly is from the rings and not the add pack of the oil....
Take this vehicle in ASAP, along with a copy of the analysis and make them fix it!!! No oil will work under these conditions. I'd also install a block heater or a strip heater for the oil pan ....
Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
I've gotten the ball rolling at the dealership, despite the (can't say in polite mail) service manager trying to put sunshine where it doesn't belong. However, I'll know Monday if Honda Corporate plans to do anything about this.
I can tell you one thing: if, when this all pans out, I am not happy with the outcome, a Honda will *never* grace my garage again.
I can tell you one thing: if, when this all pans out, I am not happy with the outcome, a Honda will *never* grace my garage again.
Looks like the winter weather and short trips have done a job on this oil.
IMHO you could benefit from a thicker grade or some VI's midway between the oil change to compensate for oil thinning as you get fuel dilution from accumulating all these short trips.
Why not throw in a cheap bottle of STP at 2000 mi, could thicken it and boost the additives when they are most needed?
(Also, I think going half a grade thicker might be a good idea for those doing short trips/low mileage driving. Maybe blend with 15w50, 0w40, or EP #132.)
IMHO you could benefit from a thicker grade or some VI's midway between the oil change to compensate for oil thinning as you get fuel dilution from accumulating all these short trips.
Why not throw in a cheap bottle of STP at 2000 mi, could thicken it and boost the additives when they are most needed?
(Also, I think going half a grade thicker might be a good idea for those doing short trips/low mileage driving. Maybe blend with 15w50, 0w40, or EP #132.)
I find it very difficult to believe that /any/ amount of short trips could net me 4% fuel dilution. On a 5 quart system that's 8 ounces! Of Fuel!
The good news the dealership wants the car for a half-day for them to run tests on it, etc...
I look forward to a definitive "it was this and now it's fixed" answer come Wednesday night.
The good news the dealership wants the car for a half-day for them to run tests on it, etc...
I look forward to a definitive "it was this and now it's fixed" answer come Wednesday night.
Good luck and keep us posted! It will be interesting to see if Honda has anything to say about using M1 5w-30 vs Hondas 5w-20 (or M1 0w-20). Has the dealership been putting in the M1 5w-30 at your request or are you doing the changes?
Mikep
They've been putting it in at my request. Believe it or not, I ran the numbers. Beyond "costs", they do it for 6 bucks. By "costs" I mean what it would cost me *if* I could acquire Honda OEM filters and the Mobil-1 at bulk prices (which I could).
Picked it up from the dealer today.
Results: "no problems located"
They inspected the engine data w/HDS tablet -
all components and sensors are working properly. Fuel ratio is normal. o2 sensor operation is normal. They installed a fuel pressure guage to fuel system, monitored for injectorleak down. None found after 55 minutes. Oil level is OK, no gas smell noticed in oil.
They did not pull the plugs. One would assume that if there was even a hint of misfire that the engine sensors would detect it. Nada.
SO.
I guess I'll have to resample at, what, 2000 miles?
What in the world could cause 4% fuel dilution without tripping a sensor?
[ January 28, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Jon ]
Results: "no problems located"
They inspected the engine data w/HDS tablet -
all components and sensors are working properly. Fuel ratio is normal. o2 sensor operation is normal. They installed a fuel pressure guage to fuel system, monitored for injectorleak down. None found after 55 minutes. Oil level is OK, no gas smell noticed in oil.
They did not pull the plugs. One would assume that if there was even a hint of misfire that the engine sensors would detect it. Nada.
SO.
I guess I'll have to resample at, what, 2000 miles?
What in the world could cause 4% fuel dilution without tripping a sensor?
[ January 28, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Jon ]
Well if it makes you feel better, if anything is really wrong, you still have quite a ways on the car warranty.
How did you sample the oil? Maybe the wear numbers were high because you got the bottom of the pan gunk.
Can you use a thicker grade oil? If you expect it to shear down a grade, then why not try 5w-40 or so in the winter. (And avoid 5w's in unless it's winter.)
No doubt this winter oil was pushed quite a bit (with temps and short trip driving). For canada winters they advise 3K OCI's. Probably more frequent oil changes with dino oils will give you more bang for the buck and better wear than stretched syn oil changes.
I had an old volvo where you could smell the fuel in the oil (no sampling required) in the winters because the cold temps made it run very rich.
Well, if this fuel thing still shows in the summer I'd start worrying. It may just be a winter thing. Adjust your lubing accordingly (to observations).
How did you sample the oil? Maybe the wear numbers were high because you got the bottom of the pan gunk.
Can you use a thicker grade oil? If you expect it to shear down a grade, then why not try 5w-40 or so in the winter. (And avoid 5w's in unless it's winter.)
No doubt this winter oil was pushed quite a bit (with temps and short trip driving). For canada winters they advise 3K OCI's. Probably more frequent oil changes with dino oils will give you more bang for the buck and better wear than stretched syn oil changes.
I had an old volvo where you could smell the fuel in the oil (no sampling required) in the winters because the cold temps made it run very rich.
Well, if this fuel thing still shows in the summer I'd start worrying. It may just be a winter thing. Adjust your lubing accordingly (to observations).
First of all, the vehicle calls for 5W-20, and I'm running 5W-30. Running a 40 weight would just be plain stupid. I don't understand what you say by "Avoid 5w's in unless it's winter." Are you trying to say I should avoid 5W's unless it's winter? Are you saying I should run a 10W-?? That's just silly.
Lastly, I did not take the sample, the dealership did. I didn't see them do it. However, I don't care *where* the oil comes from, 4% fuel dilution is way *WAY* too high for this engine with this many miles on it. Look at the lead. 0. No "normal" wear. Iron was high likely due to the fuel. Viscosity was quite low, also likely due to the fuel. And so on. ALl of the numbers here point to a fuel issue.
Relax a bit, take a deep breath!
This is only one analysis, a trend is more useful. For example, 3MP's M1 study showed 3.0% fuel at one point, and he wound up running that oil for a very long time. I think he chalked it up to sampling error.
Your fuel economy of 24 mpg is fine, my Accord V6 usually got 20 mpg in the winter (and as low as 18), and it broke 30 mpg only *once* ever. EPA ratings are 20/28 if I remember correctly.
If something were badly broken I think your fuel economy would be much worse.
How does the engine run? Probably nice and smooth, right? If the dealer did all those tests and found nothing wrong I wouldn't worry...
This is only one analysis, a trend is more useful. For example, 3MP's M1 study showed 3.0% fuel at one point, and he wound up running that oil for a very long time. I think he chalked it up to sampling error.
Your fuel economy of 24 mpg is fine, my Accord V6 usually got 20 mpg in the winter (and as low as 18), and it broke 30 mpg only *once* ever. EPA ratings are 20/28 if I remember correctly.
If something were badly broken I think your fuel economy would be much worse.
How does the engine run? Probably nice and smooth, right? If the dealer did all those tests and found nothing wrong I wouldn't worry...
Hey man, that's cool--also your plan sounds good.
I think your Honda dealer made a good effort to check things out--I know mine wouldn't have done all that... my dealer even tried to scam me at 15,000 miles, claiming that the brake pads were completely worn out, when they weren't even 50% worn yet
I think your Honda dealer made a good effort to check things out--I know mine wouldn't have done all that... my dealer even tried to scam me at 15,000 miles, claiming that the brake pads were completely worn out, when they weren't even 50% worn yet
Jon, did you take you car to Zimbrick?
""First of all, the vehicle calls for 5W-20, and I'm running 5W-30. Running a 40 weight would just be plain stupid.""
Humm, I'm running the Mobil-1 0W40 in my V6 Accord which has 18K on it and I honestly feel like the engine seems smoother. It was also down to Zero degrees last week and it turned over and started the same as it did with the 0W30 in it.
I had been running the 0w30 since day one but they were out so I tried the 0w40 and honestly I like it better. I'm confident it won't harm my engine and it really does seem to run smoother.
I'm probably going to try the new Mobil-1 5w40 at my next change or the Delvac-1 5w40.
I dont know some could call it stupid I guess but I really don't think so. Maybe I'll spring for the analisis at 5k and see what it says......
Humm, I'm running the Mobil-1 0W40 in my V6 Accord which has 18K on it and I honestly feel like the engine seems smoother. It was also down to Zero degrees last week and it turned over and started the same as it did with the 0W30 in it.
I had been running the 0w30 since day one but they were out so I tried the 0w40 and honestly I like it better. I'm confident it won't harm my engine and it really does seem to run smoother.
I'm probably going to try the new Mobil-1 5w40 at my next change or the Delvac-1 5w40.
I dont know some could call it stupid I guess but I really don't think so. Maybe I'll spring for the analisis at 5k and see what it says......
I would be interested in that UOA -- the Honda's have done quite well on the 20 and 30 weights, I would think that with an ambient temperature in the single digits (both above and below the 0 point) that a 40 weight would be a bit thick. I wouldn't even use a 40 weight in my SBC 350.
Of course, I'm new to all of this.
Of course, I'm new to all of this.
Jon, okay I think I will just so we'll know. This oil is going through the winter so it'll be a good hard test for it. I'll do it when it gets to 5k as that's when I had planned to change it.
I'll tell you though I honestly don't think it's in my head this engine runs smoother and quieter. Also when it was down to zero last week it turned over and started just as well as it did on the 0w30 oil.
I'll get the UOA because I want to do best by my engine too.
I would not worry about it much given all the checking your dealer did. Probably either sample contamination or lab measurement error.
Checking again is a fine plan.
Checking again is a fine plan.
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