2001 Civic full maintenance report

[SWS]

JAKER22: You have to be careful assuming that the LACK of noise means all is OK. The valve clearances can tighten as well as loosen over time, and tight clearances can actually be worse than loose ones! The reason is that a valve is cooled when it rests on its seat, and a valve with small clearance (tight) spends a little less time on its seat than a valve with a big clearance (loose). Over time, exhaust valves can warp / burn in this case. I had an old '65 VW Beetle (air-cooled) and valve burning was a real risk, so everybody tended to adjust them a little loose for a little more thermal margin - and amazingly it worked!

CHRIS: You did the right thing, so don't let these guys get to you. I am probably also "guilty" of highly-maintaining my cars, but over 34 years of driving I have had far fewer issues and almost no breakdowns with my cars compared to most people. I have not kept records, but I think that I have saved a lot of hassles and thousands of dollars through regular maintenance, catching issues early, doing some of the work myself, and in good sale value of my old cars, most of which were ~12 years old and had ~100K miles at the time of sale.

My kids are in their late teens now, but I really know what you mean about having a new baby in the house (Congrats!) making your "free time" more valuable. Sure, you need to take it to the shop to have smaller jobs done - that makes perfect sense! Also, I'm sure you want to make sure that the car is in top shape as you or your wife travel around with the baby! I know I did!

 

[Chris Meutsch]

Let me lay all this out and you can then form your opinions.
The original plan was to have the valves adjusted and that was it. They were noisy; Honda says adjust at 115k UNLESS noisy. I figured that if they were taking off the valve cover, why not have the timing belt done at the same time? I'd have to pay two labor's if I waited til 105k when Honda says to change it. 1/2 of the labor was indeed the timing belt and water pump. Water pump that came off looked perfect, but why chance it?
Could I have done the valves, accessory belts, oil change, PCV, and lower radiator hose myself? YES. I've done it before and most likely will do it in the future. Perhaps I did overkill on the belts and hose, and the scheduling of things before Honda says they need it. (I could not have done the timing belt or brake fluid, however.)
I had all of this done, plus a bumper-to-bumper check of every system, because I have a 25 day old son and I no longer have 8-10 hours to screw with my car, myself. My wife had a C-section and needs a lot of help lifting, cleaning and doing things around the house (that is getting better, however). This car is paid off, and I want to keep it as long as possible because the wife no longer works. I am a traveling salesman, and I don't just drive 5 miles to work every day. I'm doing 25k a year and breaking down costs me way more than this. I don't plan on doing ANY of the things listed again until 186k, except for oil changes and brake fluid and possibly valves again. The belts and hose were fine.
I see it as an investment. Keep in mind, I paid for all these parts myself off rockauto.com and saved a TON vs. what they would have charged me. And all parts were factory except the timing belt (Gates).
Peace of mind, a perfectly operating car, and more time to enjoy my new boy and take care of other things is worth $1150 to me.
Don't some of you also get peace of mind by changing out your oil at 3k? It's all what you perceive as what's right, and what you feel you are getting value for.
And this, I feel, was the right thing to do.

 

[JakeR22]

SWS, how can valve clearances tighten/decrease? And what's your definition of a burnt valve?

Chris, no need to get defensive. You have your way, I have mine. That's all that was stated.

Lets see which one last longer,

.

 

[SWS]

Hi Jake. I will share some items I have heard for valves getting tighter, but the thing that I know and can share with confidence is that it does happen. It happened on my '65 VW Bettle - I observed it as I adjusted the valves every year. Some of the valves were tight, some were perfect, some were loose. Further, I know that it is commonly observed on modern Hondas at their scheduled 105K mile valve adjustment -- I have a friend who is a Honda Master Mechanic and he has shared his recent experiences. Finally, at 80K miles on my '00 Honda Odyssey I had my valves adjusted and one of them was tight.

One way that I have heard that valves tighten is by the valve seat slowly moving into the head by being tapped by the valve. I think they call it "valve seat regression" and it has been a big topic for some people. Google that term. Apparently, leaded gas minimized this problem because the lead acted as a cushion between the valve and valve seat. This problem has to do with the robustness of the head, not the valve or valve seat. As the valve seat sinks deeper into the head, the valve clearance is reduced. I don't think this is as big of a problem as it used to be, but there are many claims.

Another thing I have seen in several places recently is that some valve trains are better at staying in spec than others. The classic example is that Honda changed to the set-screw type of valve adjustment in about 1999, while Toyota stayed with the shim-style. Apparently the set-screw type is prone to change more than the shim type.

I have never seen a "burnt valve" in person, but I have heard about them from friends and others who said that their engines had burnt exhaust valves. I am no expert, but what I have been able to gather is that PROLONGED, EXCESSIVE heat actually changes the metalurgy somehow so that the valve becomes more brittle and develops cracks & chips. Typically happens after warping, as I understand it. A burnt valve cannot be reworked - it has to be replaced. I hope that a real mechanic sees this and offers his experience!

 

[Chris Meutsch]

Like I've said before....my 1989 Mazda MX-6 had hydraulic valves. My 2001 Civic is mechanical adjustment-style. You'd think that a company like Honda, a company who wants to reduce owner-maintanence to nearly zero, would go liquid.

 

[Mr Nice]

Chris Meutsch,

Have you replaced the struts ??

I have heard that the 2001 Civic had problems with the struts leaking within the first 50K miles.

My mom has an 01' Civic LX, but she only drives 4500 miles per year. I checked both struts for leaks and there were none.

 

[VTEC01EX]

The first set of OEM struts went on my 01 Civic at about 25K. Once the KYB AGX replacements went in, I blew one of those at about 60k miles, but replaced it under KYB's lifetime warranty. It is an extremely common problem on early 7th gen civics.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

I've also heard much about the struts and specifically had these people look hard at the entire suspension.....they said it couldn't be any tighter; no problems. The ride hasn't changed a whole lot and no leaks yet. I plan on replacing all four corners when they tell me to or I feel a difference in ride or notice a leak. I'll be getting the tires rotated every 6k; they can check them then.
I heard it was a ride-height issue, and after they figured that out, Honda changed it (either the shocks or other suspension part) like 2mm and everything was fine after that.

 

[sxg6]

It sounds like you're gonna take the car to honda to get the tires rotated?

I'd just do it yourself, do a simple front to back on each side. I just jack up the front and it gets the car up high enough so that the front and rear tires are off the ground and its a 5 minute job. This is on a civic also.

I mean think about it.. If you're paying $$ every 6k to get the tires roatated.. You'll probably have spent enough money on rotations to buy yourself a new set of tires..

 

[sxg6]

Gotcha. I hope that reply isn't 100% towards me, cuz i got no problem with people spending money how they want to.

 

[labman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Meutsch:

The economy of our country revolves around people paying for goods and services of others.

---

Not really, the money I save doing my own work is money I spend elsewhere providing other people jobs. Of course if I spend it on foreign made stuff instead, the jobs aren't here.

Creating jobs can't justify any goverment boondoggle.

 

[Vilan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by SWS:
I have never seen a "burnt valve" in person, but I have heard about them from friends and others who said that their engines had burnt exhaust valves. I am no expert, but what I have been able to gather is that PROLONGED, EXCESSIVE heat actually changes the metalurgy somehow so that the valve becomes more brittle and develops cracks & chips. Typically happens after warping, as I understand it. A burnt valve cannot be reworked - it has to be replaced. I hope that a real mechanic sees this and offers his experience!

---

I'm no mechanic, real or otherwise.

But I drive a Metro and on the Metro forums I've seen several people report burnt exhaust valves. The EGR system on these tends to get plugged up solid with carbon, making the exhaust hotter, which can eventually wreck the exhaust valve. But hey, it's a Geo, not the pinnacle of mankind's engineering accomplishments.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

Negative. Nowhere in that statement do I say I'm going to the dealer. Sorry for that perception.
I rotated my tires once myself.......the car was teetering on two jack stands and my jack and it drove like **** because the tires were not balanced apparently. I don't own a balancing machine, nor do I ever want to do that balancing act ever again.

Yes, you all look to spend no money and do things yourself.....I get it, I'm the same way. But give me a rest please. The economy of our country revolves around people paying for goods and services of others.

 

[JakeR22]

quote:

---

Originally posted by SWS:
Hi Jake. I will share some items I have heard for valves getting tighter, but the thing that I know and can share with confidence is that it does happen. It happened on my '65 VW Bettle - I observed it as I adjusted the valves every year. Some of the valves were tight, some were perfect, some were loose. Further, I know that it is commonly observed on modern Hondas at their scheduled 105K mile valve adjustment -- I have a friend who is a Honda Master Mechanic and he has shared his recent experiences. Finally, at 80K miles on my '00 Honda Odyssey I had my valves adjusted and one of them was tight.

One way that I have heard that valves tighten is by the valve seat slowly moving into the head by being tapped by the valve. I think they call it "valve seat regression" and it has been a big topic for some people. Google that term. Apparently, leaded gas minimized this problem because the lead acted as a cushion between the valve and valve seat. This problem has to do with the robustness of the head, not the valve or valve seat. As the valve seat sinks deeper into the head, the valve clearance is reduced. I don't think this is as big of a problem as it used to be, but there are many claims.

Another thing I have seen in several places recently is that some valve trains are better at staying in spec than others. The classic example is that Honda changed to the set-screw type of valve adjustment in about 1999, while Toyota stayed with the shim-style. Apparently the set-screw type is prone to change more than the shim type.

I have never seen a "burnt valve" in person, but I have heard about them from friends and others who said that their engines had burnt exhaust valves. I am no expert, but what I have been able to gather is that PROLONGED, EXCESSIVE heat actually changes the metalurgy somehow so that the valve becomes more brittle and develops cracks & chips. Typically happens after warping, as I understand it. A burnt valve cannot be reworked - it has to be replaced. I hope that a real mechanic sees this and offers his experience!

---

That does make sense. I'll probably go ahead and check mine when I get the time.

 

[JakeR22]

Well, you guys talked me into it. Over the weekend I went ahead and checked the valve clearances. Most were in spec, but there were a few on the loose side, so they were re-adjusted.

Blead the brakes too! At 140k, hope it doubles that...

 

[m2200b]

It's always a tough call to replace just the timing belt or the TB and tensioner or the tb , tensioner and water pump
since each could mean the same labor charge done by thenselves. It's like how much insurance you buy- 30/60K, 250/500k or even 500/$1M

 

[JHZR2]

Quote:

---

Chris,

Not to sound negative, but I think paying $1350 at 87k miles when the car is worth $8450 is too much.

Alot of those items on the list your mech did not need to do. (and charge you)

---

The only highway robbery going on is the fact that the car might be worth $8450.

For repair work and PM, nobody can deny that too much is far better than too little. Good for Chris to get work done that made him feel that he was maintaining his car properly. Too many out there try to save a few dimes and don't care... squeak? wobble? CEL? its OK, the car still runs, right?

Now, I'd say that often mechanics use the term 'check' to charge another hour of labor and say everything is OK... and many checks can be done easily by the owner. But it comes down to time, will and money. And if money isnt an issue, and peace of mind is desired, having a pro look things over is a worthy investment.

So, all in all, good job Chris, getting things maintained as necessary, and holding a good shop to a good job!

JMH

 

[Tosh]

Quote:

---

For repair work and PM, nobody can deny that too much is far better than too little. Good for Chris to get work done that made him feel that he was maintaining his car properly. Too many out there try to save a few dimes and don't care... squeak? wobble? CEL? its OK, the car still runs, right?

Now, I'd say that often mechanics use the term 'check' to charge another hour of labor and say everything is OK... and many checks can be done easily by the owner. But it comes down to time, will and money. And if money isnt an issue, and peace of mind is desired, having a pro look things over is a worthy investment.

So, all in all, good job Chris, getting things maintained as necessary, and holding a good shop to a good job!

JMH

---

I think the only point proven by Chris' experience with his mechanic in this thread is that you're better off doing it yourself, because "having a pro look things over" was not a worthy investment in either money spent or in return on investment.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

Reviving an old thread is great.

So it was time again for the timing belt/water pump and other items as I now have 180k on the Civic (brake fluid/alignment/cam seal). Everything went splendidly. Timing belt looks brand new and I mean BRAND NEW. That would lead me to believe that time, not mileage, should be followed on replacement.
The water pump, idler pulley, gasket and PCV valve all looked great as well.
It runs just fine after the maintenance and two separate employees mentioned that it looks and runs fantastic for the time and mileage on it.
The only thing is the A/C doesn't work now. I took it right back without even getting home. They immediately went to work on it and determined that most likely, the thermal overload circuit is failing. A rental will be provided when I go back tomorrow morning and I get the feeling they will cover the repair as well considering I spent another $1,200 on this maintenance.
Overall I'm happy. Now me and the Civic need to go to 250k without further issues.

 

[Paul56]

Chris is not alone getting a lot of work done on an older vehicle. I too, am guilty.

I've been getting my 2001 Neon into shape that currently has 175,000 kilometers. The plan is to take it over the 200k mark... how much over I'm not sure. Not unusual for the 2.0 SOHC in the Neon to go beyond 200K without issue. I would not bother with the maintenance if the oil analysis results were poor... instead they are rather good. I've posted a couple in that section.

Last fall I had the water pump & timing belt done. A month ago I had the front wheel bearings and LCA bushings done. Last week the rad was replaced along with all the coolant hoses. Yesterday I replaced the headlamp housings.

Paying $1k for labor seems positively cheap compared to new car purchase price or payments.