20 Grades - Oil Consumption - NOACK - Stuck Rings

[buster]

It’s been discussed in Consumer Reports, among other articles and among enthusiasts that in many of today’s 4 cylinder engines, the move to 20 grades has increased oil consumption rates in certain motors. It’s also been suggested that over time, these engines that consume more oil, are more likely to end up with stuck rings and deposits, which causes a spike in oil consumption as time goes on.

I was thinking about this and I’m not sure I buy it. Modern Honda engines will burn oil regardless of NOACK and viscosity grade. My 05 Accord used oil from day one, but ran like new when I sold it with 180,000 miles on it. Ford tested MC 5w20, which is a blend, and there are many Ford engines (Mustangs included) that run a long time with no ring issues as they age.

It seems to me that certain engines have better oil control rings. Negative pressure on overrun and low tension rings are the primary culprit in why most modern Honda’s will consume “some” amount of oil.

I don’t see the NOACK/Oil consumption/stuck ring/deposit relationship at all.

Thoughts?

 

[buster]

From a historical perspective:

"As a point of interest, an owner’s manual for an eight-year-old car would have likely recommended a GF-2 5W-
30 oil. This oil would have had a maximum Noack volatility of 22%. Today’s GF-3 oils and the proposed GF-4
oils both have maximum Noack volatility limits of 15%. The significantly lower volatility levels of the GF-3
and GF-4 oils would be expected to contribute to lower oil consumption than the GF-2 oils."

 

[KingCake]

1. Throw you consumer reports in the garbage.
2. Hondas use oil off the lot. Nothing to do with oil.
3. Most of the 'deposit issues' are with direct injection engines.

 

[TFB1]

And I don't really buy the low tension ring theory, Ford has used them since the first roller cam 5.0 Mustangs in 1985...

Never seen NOACK was a issue in any naturally aspirated V8, but that was exact reason SD oils were developed, and no doubt later oils as well... I suppose it could be a issue in the half motor buzz bombs that have to work harder and spin more RPMs...

 

[buster]

Good points, agreed. I think there is way more to it than NOACK and oil evaporation. Especially in engines that are known to consume oil.

I can see maybe some of the Group II+ 20 grade blends that have NOACK of maybe 13-14% maybe being an issue over a longer, say 10k mile drain. But most full syn are around 9-12%. It's really a combination of things at play.

 

[06VtecV6]

Originally Posted By: buster
Good points, agreed. I think there is way more to it than NOACK and oil evaporation. Especially in engines that are known to consume oil.

I can see maybe some of the Group II+ 20 grade blends that have NOACK of maybe 13-14% maybe being an issue over a longer, say 10k mile drain. But most full syn are around 9-12%. It's really a combination of things at play.


Do you think I should go another round of PUP (putting to plan to step it up to a 10w-30 from the current 5w30 I got in) or go with QSUD (5w-30 or 10-30) for the extreme summer temps starting March down hure in the southy south. Currently I try not use aggressive driving in excess due to the cleaning phase with the PUP I am on. The chemicals required for cleaning just aren't going to make aggressive driving a priority although someone more informed on this subject "can "enlighten" me"

 

[redhat]

Over 10k worth of RT6 5W-40 OCs in an '09 K24Z2.

Less oil consumption.

 

[06VtecV6]

Random newsflash update: When you are using an oil notorious for cleaning, conSUMPtion isn't even a neg but a net positive.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Random newsflash update: When you are using an oil notorious for cleaning, conSUMPtion isn't even a neg but a net positive.


Yeah, you keep saying that...

Have you got any evidence for that, or just hypothesis ?

 

[Shipo]

Hmmm, my 2001 Honda with the J30 V6 has been fed on a steady diet of 5W-20 (for its first 100,000 miles with 7,500 mile OCIs), then I bought the car from the original owner and have used 0W-20 since then with ~10,000 mile OCIs. To this point, the engine does not use a full quart during a 10,000 mile OCI.

 

[tig1]

I haven't seen any oil use in my two Ford engines with 0-20 oil.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Random newsflash update: When you are using an oil notorious for cleaning, conSUMPtion isn't even a neg but a net positive.


? I'm not sure how this relates. Oil consumption can spike, but oils that clean well don't have anything to do with NOACK and oil consumption.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Random newsflash update: When you are using an oil notorious for cleaning, conSUMPtion isn't even a neg but a net positive.



More hogwash.
Random newsflash update: Drugs dont make you smarter than everyone else... you just think you are.

How old was this article Buster? GF-2??

There maybe something relevant from this article.. A super high vi heavy moly oil like TGMO definitely can leave more deposits.

 

[06VtecV6]

Originally Posted By: Shipo
Hmmm, my 2001 Honda with the J30 V6 has been fed on a steady diet of 5W-20 (for its first 100,000 miles with 7,500 mile OCIs), then I bought the car from the original owner and have used 0W-20 since then with ~10,000 mile OCIs. To this point, the engine does not use a full quart during a 10,000 mile OCI.


Imo, in your driving portfolio, that's because vtec doesn't work in < 4500 rpm so your driving style and attributes are more attributed to those results. I also owned a J30A5 V6 Accord and I used 5w-20 Motorcraft and was CONSTANTLY in vtec and it was your prototypical 1/2 quart on 5k OCI using MC SEMI-synthetic oil. (starting off it's life using that Driveclean series from Mobil, first the 5k and then the reputed "Semi-syn 7500 mile guarantee)

 

[deoxy4]

I have a Honda and it doesn't burn oil in a 5000 mile OCI;s on conventional oil, knock on wood. Some Honda engines use oil. It depends on what you consider "some" oil. Honda considers using 1 quart of oil per 1,000 miles as normal. I do not. I consider 1 quart per 1,000 miles a design flaw. I consider up to a quart use in 5-6K miles acceptable. Reminds me of GM Saturn and Northstar engines that were known for their excessive oil consumption. They were also faulty engine designs.

I think engines can be designed to use 20 grade oil without oil consumption. Their are plenty on UOI's to prove it. I have seen high mileage Fords using 20 grade MC oil without excessive oil consumption.

 

[06VtecV6]

Originally Posted By: deoxy4
I have a Honda and it doesn't burn oil in a 5000 mile OCI;s on conventional oil, knock on wood.



That because of the year-round (except 3 short winter months) mild and mellow weather everyone gets and more a testament to temporal or nominal extreme temps for the preponderance of the year.

 

[06VtecV6]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Random newsflash update: When you are using an oil notorious for cleaning, conSUMPtion isn't even a neg but a net positive.


Yeah, you keep saying that...

Have you got any evidence for that, or just hypothesis ?


HeyNow, Shanow, The evidence has been strewn about on here for ages. You want me to supply you with a link when you already have the info in your head? I can so please respond, this is not a rhetorical question.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Originally Posted By: deoxy4
I have a Honda and it doesn't burn oil in a 5000 mile OCI;s on conventional oil, knock on wood.

That because of the year-round (except 3 short winter months) mild and mellow weather everyone gets and more a testament to temporal or nominal extreme temps for the preponderance of the year.


Right.

Man, the stuff you type.

 

[06VtecV6]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Originally Posted By: deoxy4
I have a Honda and it doesn't burn oil in a 5000 mile OCI;s on conventional oil, knock on wood.

That because of the year-round (except 3 short winter months) mild and mellow weather everyone gets and more a testament to temporal or nominal extreme temps for the preponderance of the year.


Right.

Man, the stuff you type.

Call me notyper then, Could be why I love Moly cause of the quietening effect/affect. I have to be on edge due to "Summer is coming"...it's akin to "winter is coming" but works just the opposite with us down hure in the "south South". Keep in mind, I have been deluded all these years in thinking the owners manual is right and correct and proper for us down hure but it's been much to the contrary, i.e manuals telling us 5w-20 and other similar foolishness with ambient temps in the 90s and 100s constantly. It's murder.

 

[buster]

I referenced an old article to show that GF-2, NOACK had a cap of 22%. So oils today, even 20 grades, are fairly low volatility, even the Group III's.