20,000 miles on Mobil Delvac 1

[LineArrayNut]

How's that analysis workin' out for ya' there, chief?
Coulda used the money for an OC and been doin' a bit better, eh?
Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
I decided to try an experiment and run my car (1987 Plymouth Caravelle) for 20,000 miles on the same oil. Of course I used the best oil I could find: Mobil Delvac 1 (synthetic/5W-40/diesel oil). I then got an oil analysis to see what kind of results I got, and I think it looks good:

4 quarts + 1 quart makeup oil
14 aluminum
4 chromium
45 iron
8 copper
13 lead
4 tin
------
62 molybdenum
2 nickel
1 manganese
0 silver
0 titanium
4 potassium
-------
3193 calcium
312 magnesium
1123 phosphorus
1638 zinc
0 barium
89.0 SUS viscosity (should be 65-78)

 

[daman]

What overkill said.

 

[rrrrrroger]

Originally Posted By: LineArrayNut
How's that analysis workin' out for ya' there, chief?
Coulda used the money for an OC and been doin' a bit better, eh?
Dear Mr. Vain: First off: Who cares? The 87 Plymouth was inherited from my mother. It was a nice-looking car but it ran like crat (bounced up and down on the road due to its weight & soft shocks). I didn't enjoy driving it at all. And it only got a lousy 22mpg which is expensive when you have $4/gallon gasoline. My replacement car gets 55-60 so I'm saving about 7000 dollars over the next decade. AS FOR OIL CHANGES: I switched back to doing 5000 mile changes, and the engine still wore out. It wasn't the OCI that damaged the car "chief". (I ran my other Plymouth cars 10,000 miles on this same Delvac 1, and one last 360,000 miles. The 96 model still runs as if it were new.) It was AGE that killed the 87 Plymouth. That's what happens when the previous owner only drove it 20 miles a week & the new owner doesn' drive it all summer. The seals become damaged by the short trips & after 25 years aging, they dry out.


Mechanic explanation:
'The engine was running rich. The reason it was running rich was because oil was getting into the piston & being burned like gasoline. That's also why you kept having to add a quart of oil every 200 miles.'

I would have taken it to the garage for repair, but with 7-day workweeks it wasn't possible. The engine was full of oil when I left Connecticut (where I work) but by the time I was in Maryland it had run dry & died.

Jeez. Nothing peeves me off more than people who blame the driver. It's a _____ 25 year old car. They don't last forever. And I like the replacement car much, much better.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Originally Posted By: LineArrayNut
How's that analysis workin' out for ya' there, chief?
Coulda used the money for an OC and been doin' a bit better, eh?
Dear Mr. Vain: First off: Who cares? The 87 Plymouth was inherited from my mother. It was a nice-looking car but it ran like crat (bounced up and down on the road due to its weight & soft shocks). I didn't enjoy driving it at all. And it only got a lousy 22mpg which is expensive when you have $4/gallon gasoline. My replacement car gets 55-60 so I'm saving about 7000 dollars over the next decade. AS FOR OIL CHANGES: I switched back to doing 5000 mile changes, and the engine still wore out. It wasn't the OCI that damaged the car "chief". (I ran my other Plymouth cars 10,000 miles on this same Delvac 1, and one last 360,000 miles. The 96 model still runs as if it were new.) It was AGE that killed the 87 Plymouth. That's what happens when the previous owner only drove it 20 miles a week & the new owner doesn' drive it all summer. The seals become damaged by the short trips & after 25 years aging, they dry out.


Mechanic explanation:
'The engine was running rich. The reason it was running rich was because oil was getting into the piston & being burned like gasoline. That's also why you kept having to add a quart of oil every 200 miles.'

I would have taken it to the garage for repair, but with 7-day workweeks it wasn't possible. The engine was full of oil when I left Connecticut (where I work) but by the time I was in Maryland it had run dry & died.

Jeez. Nothing peeves me off more than people who blame the driver. It's a _____ 25 year old car. They don't last forever. And I like the replacement car much, much better.


The mechanic explanation doesn't make sense. Oil consumption doesn't make the engine "run rich". But running excessively rich can cause cylinder wash down, glazing and cause oil consumption.

Secondly, oil doesn't "get into the piston", oil may get by the rings, into the cylinder and burned. And this of course leads to oil consumption. But if this is happening, it is due to either the above explanation with regards to glazing and wash-down from your rich condition (and this rich condition would have had to persist for quite a duration for this to occur) or coking/varnish in the ring-land area leading to stuck rings, allowing oil to make its way past them, into the cylinder for consumption.

I also question the logic of running an expensive synthetic in an engine that is consuming 1/quart every 200 miles, as this is a clear indication of the engine being unhealthy in the first place. Thus making it a poor candidate for any sort of extended drain, let alone a money-sink for oil that is worth far more than the engine at that point.

 

[SteveSRT8]

rrrrr, I think someone needs a new mechanic. Or we may be getting a bit of story distortion.

 

[tarbasd]

I think I understand what happened. It's just the explanation given by the mechanic was sloppy, and it was further distorted by the OP. Oil didn't get into the pistons, of course, it got by the pistons into the cylinder and got burned. So the engine was burning oil like crazy, and on a longer trip, the OP ran it dry.

The car was old, the engine ready for a rebuild, so the car was probably pretty much worthless anyway.

 

[jimbrewer]

Insoluble number available? Interesting info from the usual 5K change on some kind of high dollar oil.

 

[LineArrayNut]

rrrrrroger,

Ok, mea culpa but I'd of said "Mr. Flippant".

I had a point, more than just to call ya' out or just to point at your problems as a personal attack, so first: sorry - my bad.

I've got a feeling that there's some parallels between you and I and I also feel strongly that the facts in the case should be brought to light.

My short statement was just that: too short. This one may be too long, so... TL/DR short OCI is good, LONG OCI is BAD.

My [censored] car that I did not like to drive was an oil guzzling, 18 mpg, slow as molasses, no fun and cantankerous 1986 mazda b2000 pickup that consumed a qt every 2 fill-ups (roughly 450 miles). I bought it cheap, put WAY too much money into it rebuilding it after the previous owners had run it into the ground and basically gave it away when I bought my new car that I like.

So let me respond to your post at this point.


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Dear Mr. Vain:


Asked and answered, see above.


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
First off: Who cares?


You should, anybody who read your original post in this thread should, anyone who is thinking that excessively long OCI's are good, or that neglecting basic car maintenance is ok should. You may have more in common with your brother than you think and he certainly should.


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
The 87 Plymouth was inherited from my mother.


A zero cost car is easy to do cavalier experiments on. I see where some of your attitudes may have come from.

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
It was a nice-looking car but it ran like crat (bounced up and down on the road due to its weight & soft shocks). I didn't enjoy driving it at all. And it only got a lousy 22mpg which is expensive when you have $4/gallon gasoline.


As above, but mine was worse. And I let it lead me into the money-pit syndrome. I feel your pain.


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
My replacement car gets 55-60 so I'm saving about 7000 dollars over the next decade.


That's really good gas mileage. What car, please, and is that a combined # or just hwy?


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
AS FOR OIL CHANGES: I switched back to doing 5000 mile changes, and the engine still wore out. It wasn't the OCI that damaged the car "chief".


Let's look at the first post in this thread and see what we can discern:

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
I decided to try an experiment and run my car (1987 Plymouth Caravelle) for 20,000 miles on the same oil. Of course I used the best oil I could find: Mobil Delvac 1 (synthetic/5W-40/diesel oil). I then got an oil analysis to see what kind of results I got, and I think it looks good:

4 quarts + 1 quart makeup oil
14 aluminum
4 chromium
45 iron
8 copper
13 lead
4 tin
------
62 molybdenum
2 nickel
1 manganese
0 silver
0 titanium
4 potassium
-------
3193 calcium
312 magnesium
1123 phosphorus
1638 zinc
0 barium
89.0 SUS viscosity (should be 65-78)


As some others in this thread have pointed out, there are some things that would be interesting to know in addition to what you have posted here: TBN - probably zero, but who knows? And without TAN, even a TBN would be tough to interpret, especially to call an analysis "good".
Insolubles: more of the same.
Silicon: Mildly high, as per Blackstone, but no number, even after a request and some discussion from you.

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Here is what the lab said:

"Sometimes we have trouble finding things to talk about. Not so here! Metals read high, and we think that's primarily due to the long oil change. Average for this engine is 3400 miles, so you're going all out at 20,000 miles. Silicon was mildly high. This may show a dirty air filter, which would cause high wear. So check that out. Too early to call yet; use 10,000 miles."

Question about oil(sic) filter:

Don't dirty air filters provide *more* filtering than clean ones? So I would expect less dirt. Also, wouldn't I notice if the engine was starving for air due to a dirty filter?


But the most telling point of the original post is the makeup oil added over the OCI: One quart over 20,000 miles and from an answer later in the thread we see that is roughly a one year interval for you.

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Originally Posted By: pbm
How many months did it take to accumulate 20K?
I don't remember. I guess one year (since my last State inspection).


So, at the time of your first post post, you had - in your own words - a good analysis, a really good consumption rate and a good running car, even though you didn't like it much.

Now, a handful of years later, doing - as you stated above - 5k OCI's since then, which is 4 per year or so, with good oils, 5K OCI's would be only 1/4 qt consumption after your "good" analysis. But something changes(abruptly?) So that a trip from CT to MD uses up all the oil and your neglect causes it to blow up? Your car suddenly began using a quart every 200 miles? Really? Does this not seem a little far-fetched to you?

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
(I ran my other Plymouth cars 10,000 miles on this same Delvac 1, and one last 360,000 miles. The 96 model still runs as if it were new.)


Why did you decide on 5K for this one, then? Or decide that 20K was a good experiment to try and that it turned out good? And let's be sure that everyone knows that the 360K car was not without issues its whole life:

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger

My car:

- blown head gasket at ~150,000 miles (common problem with 80s-era Dodges; A result of mismatching steel engine with aluminum head)
- valve tap at ~200,000 miles
- I didn't want to spend thousands fixing old car.
- So I kept driving.
- the valve finally "broke off" after I passed 340,000 miles
- engine blown

Used Pennzoil natural for first half of the car's life, and Mobil Delvac 1 for the second half of its life. I think if I had not used Delvac 1, the car would have died sooner.

Engines do sometimes die.

(edited for content: thread here - https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=83729&Number=1085090 )

I'm glad your '96 is doing good. Maybe you haven't done whimsical experiments with it.


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
It was AGE that killed the 87 Plymouth. That's what happens when the previous owner only drove it 20 miles a week & the new owner doesn' drive it all summer. The seals become damaged by the short trips & after 25 years aging, they dry out.


Ok, we're getting a little deep here, so everyone put on your wading boots.
You've had it for about 4 years, you're running 20K a year. So mom put about 20 miles x 52 weeks x 21 years: 21,840 miles. Blew up at 80K so you put about 60K on it.
Back in '08 you said it was running good, VERY low oil consumption, "good" analysis.
NOW, you say it was short trips that killed it. Do you see the disconnect here?
But for some reason you decided to start running 5K OCI's after a 20K "good" OCI. Please tell us exactly when the oil consumption started.
I'd hazard a guess it was directly after this errant experiment and even Blackstone said you should run only 10k on this oil.
As you mentioned about your brother, there's got to be more to this story.
I understand that this was the winter beater? And that you drove the nicer car in the summer so that it sat; and your parents and Marilyn Vos Savant said not to?


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...956#Post1073956

So which is it? The short trips? The age? The sitting? When did it happen? Something doesn't quite add up.


Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Mechanic explanation:
'The engine was running rich. The reason it was running rich was because oil was getting into the piston & being burned like gasoline. That's also why you kept having to add a quart of oil every 200 miles.'


So, again, when did the consumption start?

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
I would have taken it to the garage for repair, but with 7-day workweeks it wasn't possible. The engine was full of oil when I left Connecticut (where I work) but by the time I was in Maryland it had run dry & died.


I was working 7 day work weeks too, when mine was using about half as much, but seriously, no oil light came on? You never knew it was consuming? You just didn't give a [censored]?

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Jeez. Nothing peeves me off more than people who blame the driver. It's a _____ 25 year old car. They don't last forever. And I like the replacement car much, much better.


Like I said, you and your brother may have more in common than you think.
You blew your car up after you ruined your car with a misbegotten experiment.
I'm glad you like your new (Insight, is it?) car better, I like mine better too.

 

[schuylkill]

Quote:
My replacement car gets 55-60

Would that be a Prius getting those numbers? Are you running TGMO?

 

[Degreaser]

After reading this thread, it brings back memories of my '74 orange Gremlin, when in '83 I drove it across Canada from NL to Vancouver and back to St. John's, then to Toronto, and then back and forth from TO to Windsor Ontario numerous times, and then on one of my high speed runs to back to Windsor, smoke, lots of smoke. The GM sales person in Windsor gave me $1,000 for the Gremlin even with a blown engine on a trade up to a used '84 Pontiac with front wheel drive, and that car ended up being a money pit, another long story but back to my Gremlin. And thinking back, I can only remember having the oil chainged once on the Gremlin in Winnipeg Manitoba on my way to Vancouver. I suppose this thread has brought out my confession of my neglect to have proper OCI's. Now I am anal about maintenance on my cars and motorcycle.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: LineArrayNut
at the time of your first post post, you had - in your own words - a good analysis, a really good consumption rate and a good running car, even though you didn't like it much.

Now, a handful of years later, doing - as you stated above - 5k OCI's since then, which is 4 per year or so, with good oils, 5K OCI's would be only 1/4 qt consumption after your "good" analysis. But something changes(abruptly?) So that a trip from CT to MD uses up all the oil and your neglect causes it to blow up? Your car suddenly began using a quart every 200 miles? Really? Does this not seem a little far-fetched to you?


I find it funny that people think the original poster is lying. Cars DO sometimes have sudden failures. Maybe a seal burst open internally, and the great-running car started losing a quart of oil every 200 miles. It isn't inconceivable. It doesn't mean the OP is lying.

I had a Saturn that was dead within a month. It started by losing power on the highway (top speed 70). The mechanic looked at it & said cylinder 2 had lost compression; bad seal. I kept driving until it died abut 5 weeks later. Towed it to the garage and he said now 2 cylinders lost compression. Cars sometimes die suddenly. (Now I guess yu'l accuse me of lying too.)

(2) Looking at the used oil analyses it amazes me that you guys run 20,000 miles. That guy with the S2000 went 40,000 miles!

(3) It looks to me that long oil changes are NOT a problem and don;t see why you Linearray Nut think they are. Or why you're hating on the guy just because he posted his oil analysis. Over in Europe new cars are told to go 20,000 miles between changes, and the manufacturer would not make the recommendation if it were not possible. (Well maybe tey would if they wanted to kill cars & sell more units; but I doubt it.)

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
[ Maybe a seal burst open internally, and the great-running car started losing a quart of oil every 200 miles.


The bursting internal seal strikes again.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: blackman777
[ Maybe a seal burst open internally, and the great-running car started losing a quart of oil every 200 miles.


The bursting internal seal strikes again.

Right,

what seal?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: LineArrayNut
at the time of your first post post, you had - in your own words - a good analysis, a really good consumption rate and a good running car, even though you didn't like it much.

Now, a handful of years later, doing - as you stated above - 5k OCI's since then, which is 4 per year or so, with good oils, 5K OCI's would be only 1/4 qt consumption after your "good" analysis. But something changes(abruptly?) So that a trip from CT to MD uses up all the oil and your neglect causes it to blow up? Your car suddenly began using a quart every 200 miles? Really? Does this not seem a little far-fetched to you?


I find it funny that people think the original poster is lying. Cars DO sometimes have sudden failures. Maybe a seal burst open internally, and the great-running car started losing a quart of oil every 200 miles. It isn't inconceivable. It doesn't mean the OP is lying.

I had a Saturn that was dead within a month. It started by losing power on the highway (top speed 70). The mechanic looked at it & said cylinder 2 had lost compression; bad seal. I kept driving until it died abut 5 weeks later. Towed it to the garage and he said now 2 cylinders lost compression. Cars sometimes die suddenly. (Now I guess yu'l accuse me of lying too.)

(2) Looking at the used oil analyses it amazes me that you guys run 20,000 miles. That guy with the S2000 went 40,000 miles!

(3) It looks to me that long oil changes are NOT a problem and don;t see why you Linearray Nut think they are. Or why you're hating on the guy just because he posted his oil analysis. Over in Europe new cars are told to go 20,000 miles between changes, and the manufacturer would not make the recommendation if it were not possible. (Well maybe tey would if they wanted to kill cars & sell more units; but I doubt it.)






I don't think you are lying but I do feel you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

 

[OilFool]

Would love to do this on fleet GMC pickups...
Oil filters have not been changed since 10/08 and oil should have 38k on it, and all we do is add oil because it is out of our job specs to maintain.
Trucks run great other than the clunking from the lower end bearings.

 

[[email protected]]

Ive had at least 6 different Mopars with the 2.2l/2.5l engines in my days.

Those engines were HARD as heck on oil. Much after 4000 miles, they'd usually start burning it and it was always black as tar at that point but usually long before. Low mile engines, high mile engines - it didnt matter.

How ANYBODY could go 20,000 miles on an oil change on a 2.2l or 2.5l from that era is .... interesting to say the least! '

Bummer the car 'died'. If it were me, I wouldve dropped a T2 engine in it.

 

[blackman777]

Just find it odd the posters dismiss the idea a car could experience a sudden internal failure that would make it go from some oil consumption to a quart every 500 miles. I've seen all kinds of things suddenly fail (the stove worked perfectly last week; now it doesn't turn on) (a lightbulb suddenly goes "pop" and no longer lights) (my flight had a sudden brake failure, so we end-up coasting down the runway rather than stopping).

Why would you assume the original owner of this Plymouth would be lying about his experience? It sounds like he ran the car on 5000 mile intervals. An an experiment he tried 20,000 miles. Then he return to his usual 5000 mile intervals.

And then 4 years later the car suffered a sudden internal failure that made it consume oil rapidly. To me (a mechanic) it sounds like a believable car event to me. I never assume a driver is lying. Mechanical items fail all the [censored] time.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777

And then 4 years later the car suffered a sudden internal failure that made it consume oil rapidly. To me (a mechanic) it sounds like a believable car event to me. I never assume a driver is lying. Mechanical items fail all the [censored] time.


But earlier you said this:

Quote:
I had a Saturn that was dead within a month. It started by losing power on the highway (top speed 70). The mechanic looked at it & said cylinder 2 had lost compression; bad seal. I kept driving until it died abut 5 weeks later. Towed it to the garage and he said now 2 cylinders lost compression.


So if you are a mechanic, why did you take your Saturn to a mechanic? And why do you state things that no mechanic I've ever met would say, like this:

Quote:
Maybe a seal burst open internally, and the great-running car started losing a quart of oil every 200 miles.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I find it funny that people think the original poster is lying. Cars DO sometimes have sudden failures. Maybe a seal burst open internally, and the great-running car started losing a quart of oil every 200 miles. It isn't inconceivable. It doesn't mean the OP is lying.

I had a Saturn that was dead within a month. It started by losing power on the highway (top speed 70). The mechanic looked at it & said cylinder 2 had lost compression; bad seal. I kept driving until it died abut 5 weeks later. Towed it to the garage and he said now 2 cylinders lost compression. Cars sometimes die suddenly.


What seal?

 

[blackman777]

I'm a factory mechanic, not a car mechanic, and fix lots of failing or failed machines in the factory. Though I do work on my own car, I don't know how to tear into my Saturn and figure-out why it lost power. Never lifted the head of any engine and have zero interest in trying. So I took it to the dealer.

Your turn: How come you assume the original poster is a liar?

"What seal?" Beats me. Probably the one that made this dude's car go from eating no oil to eating 1 quart every 200 miles. Something, somewhere must have failed. So what's YOUR theory on why that happened? Yeah I know: "The original driver is lying." That's a depressing attitude to have towards your fellow human beings.