(2) New Purolator L14610 ( cut open)

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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
i think purolator cut down on torn filters by slowing down the oil flow using super small oil holes on the center tube.... Yeah i know i sound like a broken record but it is what it is.


It is what it is, and its not an issue. The math doesn't add up for it to be an issue- take the cross section of each "super small" hole, multiply by the total number of holes in the center tube, and you'll still get a total area that's bigger than the cross section of the threaded filter mounting tube that all the oil has to flow thru on the way back into the engine. Small holes = better media support. The other extreme (big holes) is E-core, and nobody likes THAT either!


If the cross section of all the louvered slits adds up to more than the cross section of all holes in the old center tube design, then the velocity of oil through each slit will be less than the velocity of the oil through each hole in the old center tube design.

That would help to more evenly distribute and slow down the oil flow velocity through the media right next to the louvered openings in the center tube.

I don't think the Purolator tearing problem was due to the center tube design with the round holes since they never had a tearing issue until something else changed, like the media brittleness and the wide pleat spacing near the seam - which I think was the main problem. Purolator could have changed the center tube design to help reduce the chances of tearing by trying to distribute the flow through the media a little better.

ZeeOSix - I agree with your assessment.

The tears on these always seem to start on the apex of one of the wide pleats toward the outer circumference and also at the epoxy to media interface at the dome end cap or the thread end cap. This appears to be the point of maximum stress. The tears do not seem to occur any where else.

If Purolator would use a little stronger media and a bit more of it, this may never have been a problem.

I did not see any rust on these two sisters either.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
i think purolator cut down on torn filters by slowing down the oil flow using super small oil holes on the center tube.... Yeah i know i sound like a broken record but it is what it is.


It is what it is, and its not an issue. The math doesn't add up for it to be an issue- take the cross section of each "super small" hole, multiply by the total number of holes in the center tube, and you'll still get a total area that's bigger than the cross section of the threaded filter mounting tube that all the oil has to flow thru on the way back into the engine. Small holes = better media support. The other extreme (big holes) is E-core, and nobody likes THAT either!



And something that this supposed engine builder doesn't seam to take into account is that all oil pumps on cars are positive displacement. So these supposed restricting louvers will increase velocity through them not ristrict oil flow.
 
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
And something that this supposed engine builder doesn't seam to take into account is that all oil pumps on cars are positive displacement. So these supposed restricting louvers will increase velocity through them not ristrict oil flow.


Yes, the oil volume will remain constant due to the positive displacement oil pump, so the actual oil volume will not decrease. If the louvers were more restrictive than the old center tube design with holes, then the velocity through each louver would increase compared to each hole, and the delta-p across the filter would increase some as a result of the higher restriction.

So as the total flow area of the center tube increases, the velocity through the flow area decreases if the flow rate stays constant.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
And something that this supposed engine builder doesn't seam to take into account is that all oil pumps on cars are positive displacement. So these supposed restricting louvers will increase velocity through them not ristrict oil flow.


Yes, the oil volume will remain constant due to the positive displacement oil pump, so the actual oil volume will not decrease. If the louvers were more restrictive than the old center tube design with holes, then the velocity through each louver would increase compared to each hole, and the delta-p across the filter would increase some as a result of the higher restriction.

So as the total flow area of the center tube increases, the velocity through the flow area decreases if the flow rate stays constant.


Exactly something someone who knows about engines should know.
 
Quote:
i think purolator cut down on torn filters by slowing down the oil flow using super small oil holes on the center tube.... Yeah i know i sound like a broken record but....
lol.gif
But on the plus side one out of two is 50%.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

I don't think the Purolator tearing problem was due to the center tube design with the round holes since they never had a tearing issue until something else changed, like the media brittleness and the wide pleat spacing near the seam - which I think was the main problem.


We're all just swaggin' on what changed, but my bet is that it was not even something material. I think they did something on the assembly line to save time and/or money that allowed the pleat spacing to get extreme adjacent to the crimp. Heck, it could even be as simple as a piece line machinery wearing out and no longer doing its job well.

The different tube design is probably just a change in supplier, but it could be more intentional. If nothing else, it at least signals that processes and procedures have changed, which is a good thing.
 
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
And something that this supposed engine builder doesn't seam to take into account is that all oil pumps on cars are positive displacement. So these supposed restricting louvers will increase velocity through them not ristrict oil flow.


Yes, the oil volume will remain constant due to the positive displacement oil pump, so the actual oil volume will not decrease. If the louvers were more restrictive than the old center tube design with holes, then the velocity through each louver would increase compared to each hole, and the delta-p across the filter would increase some as a result of the higher restriction.

So as the total flow area of the center tube increases, the velocity through the flow area decreases if the flow rate stays constant.


Exactly something someone who knows about engines should know.


People keep parroting the "oil pumps are positive displacement" line, and that's true as far as it goes.

HOWEVER... most engines have an oil pressure relief valve immediately following the oil pump (usually built into the oil pump itself), and therefore upstream of the oil filter. A positive displacement pump with a fixed pressure relief valve at the output IS NO LONGER A POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT SOURCE. It transitions to a constant-pressure source at the point where the relief valve opens**. So upstream of the oil filter in most engines, it is NOT a positive-displacement source. It has to be thought of as a constant-pressure source above the relief pressure. The upshot of that is that restrictive oil filters can and do cause a drop in oil pressure in the engine oil galleries.

This is dependent on the oiling system design and how its intended to operate. My favorite examples are old-school small-block Chevy vs old-school V8 (small and big block) Mopar. Chevies are designed to operate at low oil pressure and the relief valve rarely opens (with stock pumps and clearances). With an old-school Chevy the oil pump does stay in "positive displacement" mode most of the time and pressure varies widely with RPM generally following the old "10 PSI for every 1000 RPM rule," so you usually don't hit 50 PSI until upwards of 5000 RPM. Mopars are designed to reach a fixed pressure at a relatively low RPM (order of 2000-3000 RPM, down where the torque is high and the bearings need oil pressure- IMO a better design) at which point the relief valve opens and pressure stops varying much with RPM, until you get to such high RPM that the relief valve is maxed out and pressure starts rising with RPM again. Mopars will run 40-50 PSI at 2500 RPM all the way to 5000 or so before it starts rising again. There are other manufacturers who follow both of those patterns, though most follow the Mopar scheme these days or go even further and have active oil pressure controls and variable-displacement pumps.

THAT is what someone who understands engine design and construction should know!

** There are good electrical circuit analogs for this. A positive displacement oil pump models as a current source. The relief valve models as a zener diode across the output of the current source. The filter models as a series resistor, and all the other engine clearances (the main and rod bearings, lifters, cam bearings, etc.) model as a network of series-parallel resistors, and oil pressure at any point is represented by the resulting voltage.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
People keep parroting the "oil pumps are positive displacement" line, and that's true as far as it goes.

HOWEVER... most engines have an oil pressure relief valve immediately following the oil pump (usually built into the oil pump itself), and therefore upstream of the oil filter. A positive displacement pump with a fixed pressure relief valve at the output IS NO LONGER A POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT SOURCE. It transitions to a constant-pressure source at the point where the relief valve opens**. So upstream of the oil filter in most engines, it is NOT a positive-displacement source. It has to be thought of as a constant-pressure source above the relief pressure. The upshot of that is that restrictive oil filters can and do cause a drop in oil pressure in the engine oil galleries.

Totally agree. I know on my LS6 in the Z06 that I had to basically rev to near redline to get the oil pressure near the pressure relief setting when the oil was fully hot (200 F), and I don't think it hit pressure relief even then. That corresponds with what you said below about Chevy V8s. So at least on the LS6 I never worried about making the filter go into bypass as long as the oil was fully hot. Now of course if I revved it really high with colder oil it would probably make the pump hit pressure relief.

But the thing is, the filter's bypass valve only functions based on the delta-p only across the filter. If for example, a louvered center tube didn't have the slits opened up very much, it could cause the delta-p to be much higher than it normally should be, and the filter would go into bypass much easier, and maybe even before the pump ever hit pressure relief ... especially when the oil is cold.

In the case of the Z06, it seemed like the oil pump would hit pressure relief (ie, become a 'constant pressure source') way before the filter delta-p was large enough to cause the filter bypass valve to open. That's the way it should be on any engine IMO. I ran 4 or 5 different oil filters and could never see a difference in oil pressure even near redline, so I don't think the pump could ever hit pressure relief, otherwise I might have seen a few PSI difference at near redline.

Guys that put some crazy high volume aftermarket oil pump with a high relief valve setting could cause the oil filter to go into bypass pretty easily and not even know it. The higher pump volume output (per 1000 RPM) and the higher pump pressure relief makes the oil pump a 'positive displacement source' beyond what a normal filter's bypass setting is usually designed for. And if they run a heavier weight oil and run the engine at high RPM all the time, it just adds to a larger pump to filter mismatch. That's where specific 'racing oil filters' come in.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
This is dependent on the oiling system design and how its intended to operate. My favorite examples are old-school small-block Chevy vs old-school V8 (small and big block) Mopar. Chevies are designed to operate at low oil pressure and the relief valve rarely opens (with stock pumps and clearances). With an old-school Chevy the oil pump does stay in "positive displacement" mode most of the time and pressure varies widely with RPM generally following the old "10 PSI for every 1000 RPM rule," so you usually don't hit 50 PSI until upwards of 5000 RPM. Mopars are designed to reach a fixed pressure at a relatively low RPM (order of 2000-3000 RPM, down where the torque is high and the bearings need oil pressure- IMO a better design) at which point the relief valve opens and pressure stops varying much with RPM, until you get to such high RPM that the relief valve is maxed out and pressure starts rising with RPM again. Mopars will run 40-50 PSI at 2500 RPM all the way to 5000 or so before it starts rising again. There are other manufacturers who follow both of those patterns, though most follow the Mopar scheme these days or go even further and have active oil pressure controls and variable-displacement pumps.

Cool info ... I've never owned a Mopar, so never knew they had what seems like a higher output oil pump that puts the pump in pressure relief at a much lower RPM.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
IIRC, 14610s weren't high on the list of reported torn filters anyway, were they?



all that list shows is which filters are more commonly used
 
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
IIRC, 14610s weren't high on the list of reported torn filters anyway, were they?


all that list shows is which filters are more commonly used


Of the models listed in the spreadsheet, the 14610 had the highest number reported ... and yes, it's a popular filter. But it was definitely an offender. Look at the model number summary towards the bottom.

Tear Report Spreadsheet [Link]
 
the math may not add up but picture a conventional 10w30 high mileage oil change which is usually blended on the thicker side on a 10 below zero night with that thick oil pushing through those itty bitty oil holes in the center tube..This is another reason why GM wanted e cores because they flow with ease.. Use what you want its your wallet. I will be using a quality filter with the good old round holes they had from day one before all the filter tearing came into play. If you feel good about using a junky filter its all good here on my side..Good Luck
 
^^^ But the same thick 10w30 at 10 below zero going through a center tube with holes that have less total flow area would be worse than through a center tube with more total flow area.

The whole crux to the situation is that if the louvers have more total flow area, then they will flow better than a bunch of holes that have less total flow area. You can't go by how they 'look' ... ya gotta do the math, which will show you what's going on.
 
That's what the filter bypass is for. If the filter cannot flow the oil because it's too cold, I don't think it's a great failsafe to be relying on slightly larger holes or ecores, of all things. If I were worried about cold oil and flow and potential damage or filter tearing, an ecore would be the last thing I would be using.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
i think purolator cut down on torn filters by slowing down the oil flow using super small oil holes on the center tube.... Yeah i know i sound like a broken record but it is what it is.


It is what it is, and its not an issue. The math doesn't add up for it to be an issue- take the cross section of each "super small" hole, multiply by the total number of holes in the center tube, and you'll still get a total area that's bigger than the cross section of the threaded filter mounting tube that all the oil has to flow thru on the way back into the engine. Small holes = better media support. The other extreme (big holes) is E-core, and nobody likes THAT either!

Don't confuse him with the facts.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
And something that this supposed engine builder doesn't seam to take into account is that all oil pumps on cars are positive displacement. So these supposed restricting louvers will increase velocity through them not ristrict oil flow.


Yes, the oil volume will remain constant due to the positive displacement oil pump, so the actual oil volume will not decrease. If the louvers were more restrictive than the old center tube design with holes, then the velocity through each louver would increase compared to each hole, and the delta-p across the filter would increase some as a result of the higher restriction.

So as the total flow area of the center tube increases, the velocity through the flow area decreases if the flow rate stays constant.


Exactly something someone who knows about engines should know.


People keep parroting the "oil pumps are positive displacement" line, and that's true as far as it goes.

HOWEVER... most engines have an oil pressure relief valve immediately following the oil pump (usually built into the oil pump itself), and therefore upstream of the oil filter. A positive displacement pump with a fixed pressure relief valve at the output IS NO LONGER A POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT SOURCE. It transitions to a constant-pressure source at the point where the relief valve opens**. So upstream of the oil filter in most engines, it is NOT a positive-displacement source. It has to be thought of as a constant-pressure source above the relief pressure. The upshot of that is that restrictive oil filters can and do cause a drop in oil pressure in the engine oil galleries.

This is dependent on the oiling system design and how its intended to operate. My favorite examples are old-school small-block Chevy vs old-school V8 (small and big block) Mopar. Chevies are designed to operate at low oil pressure and the relief valve rarely opens (with stock pumps and clearances). With an old-school Chevy the oil pump does stay in "positive displacement" mode most of the time and pressure varies widely with RPM generally following the old "10 PSI for every 1000 RPM rule," so you usually don't hit 50 PSI until upwards of 5000 RPM. Mopars are designed to reach a fixed pressure at a relatively low RPM (order of 2000-3000 RPM, down where the torque is high and the bearings need oil pressure- IMO a better design) at which point the relief valve opens and pressure stops varying much with RPM, until you get to such high RPM that the relief valve is maxed out and pressure starts rising with RPM again. Mopars will run 40-50 PSI at 2500 RPM all the way to 5000 or so before it starts rising again. There are other manufacturers who follow both of those patterns, though most follow the Mopar scheme these days or go even further and have active oil pressure controls and variable-displacement pumps.

THAT is what someone who understands engine design and construction should know!

** There are good electrical circuit analogs for this. A positive displacement oil pump models as a current source. The relief valve models as a zener diode across the output of the current source. The filter models as a series resistor, and all the other engine clearances (the main and rod bearings, lifters, cam bearings, etc.) model as a network of series-parallel resistors, and oil pressure at any point is represented by the resulting voltage.
Put a zener across a current source without a series resistor after the source and you'll fry it. The if the filter is the "series resistor" where should the bypass be placed?
 
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
IIRC, 14610s weren't high on the list of reported torn filters anyway, were they?



all that list shows is which filters are more commonly used


Well, there are a huge number of L30001s sold/used and it rarely turned up on the list, if at all. But its a big filter with low delta-P in most applications. I think the bigger filters also tended to suffer less from wonky pleat spacings.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum


** There are good electrical circuit analogs for this. A positive displacement oil pump models as a current source. The relief valve models as a zener diode across the output of the current source. The filter models as a series resistor, and all the other engine clearances (the main and rod bearings, lifters, cam bearings, etc.) model as a network of series-parallel resistors, and oil pressure at any point is represented by the resulting voltage.
Put a zener across a current source without a series resistor after the source and you'll fry it. The if the filter is the "series resistor" where should the bypass be placed?


Howza 'bout something like this:

drawing_zpspprtqkde.jpg
 
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