2.7 Ecoboost - An overbuilt beast with a flaw

And if it does fail, it's not instant death for the engine like a timing belt.
If an oil pump fails it's not instant death for the engine? Whachu talkin about, Willis? Engine life can be measured in seconds with no oil pressure. I mean you might be able to shut it off and save it if you're puttering around the neighborhood. Maybe.
 
Makes me appreciate my 2v modulars. I should pick up more vehicles with them. Driven right off the crank snout. That seems like the right way to do it. I guess a chain driven pump is also okay.

It seems that multiple companies had had issues with oil pump drives over the years. I know a lot of Ford vulcan engines and later Jeep 4.0 engines died when the oil pump drive from the fake distributor failed and either stopped spinning because the gear wore on the cam or wore on the distributor.

We had a powertech 3.7 die when the oil pump drive broke on a cold start. Apparently there's a long shaft that snapped.
It's no guarantee. As an owner of a modular, I can tell you those pumps are all aluminum and they wallow out over time. When you get low oil pressure it's starts eating itself from the inside out. I'm replacing my pump when I open it up for the timing job. I already have the Melling HV replacement.
 
It's no guarantee. As an owner of a modular, I can tell you those pumps are all aluminum and they wallow out over time. When you get low oil pressure it's starts eating itself from the inside out. I'm replacing my pump when I open it up for the timing job. I already have the Melling HV replacement.

I should have done the one on my 5.4 when I did cam chains/tensioners/guides during the head gasket job. I was afraid of dropping a bolt in the oil pan and having to pull the engine to get it out. I'm doing guides and tensioners/arms on my 4.6 in a few weeks and was debating the oil pump but I'm in NY so the car will rot out before the oil pump wears out.
 
If an oil pump fails it's not instant death for the engine? Whachu talkin about, Willis? Engine life can be measured in seconds with no oil pressure. I mean you might be able to shut it off and save it if you're puttering around the neighborhood. Maybe.
No oil pressure doesn't mean there still isn't a film of oil still coating the parts. No you can't drive 5 miles to the repair shop, but 20-30 seconds to pull off to a safe spot should be ok. There isn't much oil pressure at idle anyway and not much stress on the bearings either. Timing belt goes and you don't have even a second to shut it down before the engine is done.
 
No oil pressure doesn't mean there still isn't a film of oil still coating the parts. No you can't drive 5 miles to the repair shop, but 20-30 seconds to pull off to a safe spot should be ok. There isn't much oil pressure at idle anyway and not much stress on the bearings either. Timing belt goes and you don't have even a second to shut it down before the engine is done.
20-30 seconds if you're lucky. What if you're in the left lane doing 80 on a busy urban 4 lane? Accelerating hard away from a stop while towing a trailer? Nah there's just too many scenarios that this isn't going to work out.

I just refuse to go down this rabbit hole. There is absolutely no reason for a manufacturer to make engines this way to save maybe $20 in parts at their mass produced cost. I won't buy one ever now that I know this ticking time bomb lurks under the timing cover.
 
I fumble a lot. I could very much see myself dropping the bolts that hold the oil pump to the block :D
FordTechMakuloco shows how to change them without pulling the engine, it does involve removing suspension parts though.

Sometimes people don't have an option, if youe guides break and are now living in the oil pan when you change the guide, you don't really have a choice but to proceed and take the pan off.
 
While I am not a fan of the belt in this location, the story of the demise of this engine needs to be taken into account as well.

The engine was run 5 quarts low on oil for an undetermined amount of time until the oil pressure light came on. It was then refilled, then driven longer until its actual failure.

The concern here is over the wear in a belt that was at an angle that was more extreme than it would ever see in use in the engine (the person taking the video even states that), and it was run in a wet location with 1/6 of the normal oil amount. Anyone think that perhaps there was some extra heat / wear / etc under this scenario? Could some of the wear seen been from this setup of circumstances?

That said, I've got the non belt version of this engine in my 2016. It is DI only, and the video poster made multiple references to the DI engines only requiring frequent induction services. I'd challenge anyone to find real documented instances of the DI only 2.7's having massive valve deposits requiring this service. Reality appears to be it was a fear (and well documented on other brands in other applications, whose pictures seem to end up in threads about this engine) but not actually seen in real service. (Of note, then why the dual system DI and PFI on the later versions - that has to do with emissions as much as anything and pure DI engines create fine soot that the PFI deals with...)
 
Cool video. First I've seen a Ford 2.7T torn down to that degree.

The complexity of that engine makes the VQ38DD in my 2022 Nissan Frontier look like an old tractor engine.
 
It's not always about money, this came from Wikipedia do so take it for what is worth here's a snippet link is below.

"Additional changes include a new lightweight cam to save weight, dual-chain cam drive system that is stronger and reduces parasitic friction loss, a new electrically actuated wastegate that provides more accurate turbo boost control, a high-pressure exhaust gas recirculation system, and a variable-displacement belt-driven oil pump that is electronically controlled to modulate oil flow to further reduce parasitic losses"

Many of theses changes are what they do it meet Government imposed standards and I'm sure the will accept some out years reliability reductions to meet current CAFE and Emissions standards. I'd bet they have marketing data to show most people buying new cars don't really plan to keep them to 200,000 miles they are planning on another new one when the lease is up or the last payment is made.

 
If the light went out - then how was it abused. Should the light not stay on? Not sure how I feel about that, but I think it should stay on?

As for Ford, read Iacocca's biography. They knew the pinto could explode, and new they could fix it for like 7 bucks. The beancounters at Ford calculated it would be cheaper to pay out for a few deaths than fix the cars. Those notes came out in a lawsuit and the jury awarded punitive damages - almost bankrupt Ford.
None of us were in the truck, so we only have the abbreviated story to go by. The oil light came on; he pulled over. Did he shut the engine off and allow what little oil remained to settle to the bottom and then restart the engine at idle, with JUST ENOUGH oil to keep the light out? Perhaps. Also, he got 5 quarts of oil to top it off before driving 30 miles. But where did he get 5 quarts? No one I know of drives around with 5 spare quarts in the bed. So he probably drove a short distance with the oil light on (again) to get that 5 qts. Or maybe not? We simply don't know. Even after adding oil, the engine pooped the bed; probably because the 5 quarts he added came way too late. What we do know is that engine was run for a significant amount of time with no oil pressure; several minutes or more would be my guess. The way the bearings were just obliterated doesn't happen in 20 seconds of no oil pressure. That engine ran (nearly) dry for quite some time. And so the heat and drag on that oil pump belt was WAY more than what it would see in a long time span, if ever. So my point was that judging the belt's condition as if it were "normal" wear and tear is not at all applicable in this case.

I worked for Ford for 16 years; I know all about the Pinto. And if you think Ford is the only company to have ever made a fiscal decision regarding product cost vs safety, well, you're not in tune with what happens in the manufacturing world. These decisions happen ALL the time. Vehicles, appliances, medical equipment, power tools, etc etc etc ... Anything we touch as humans has a cost vs risk assessment.
 
Last edited:
20-30 seconds if you're lucky. What if you're in the left lane doing 80 on a busy urban 4 lane? Accelerating hard away from a stop while towing a trailer? Nah there's just too many scenarios that this isn't going to work out.

I just refuse to go down this rabbit hole. There is absolutely no reason for a manufacturer to make engines this way to save maybe $20 in parts at their mass produced cost. I won't buy one ever now that I know this ticking time bomb lurks under the timing cover.
So, again, you’re going to take one single example of a failure after known abuse and apply it to millions of that engine family that have accumulated hundreds of millions of total miles?

Looks like you better get in good with a shoe store manager, because every single engine today has had some bonehead cause a freak failure to even the most robust engine designs. You’re gonna need some new Skechers with all the miles you’ll be walking since every vehicle is a lurking time bomb…
 
None of us were in the truck, so we only have the abbreviated story to go by. The oil light came on; he pulled over. Did he shut the engine off and allow what little oil remained to settle to the bottom and then restart the engine at idle, with JUST ENOUGH oil to keep the light out? Perhaps. Also, he got 5 quarts of oil to top it off before driving 30 miles. But where did he get 5 quarts? No one I know of drives around with 5 spare quarts in the bed. So he probably drove a short distance with the oil light on (again) to get that 5 qts. Or maybe not? We simply don't know. Even after adding oil, the engine pooped the bed; probably because the 5 quarts he added came way too late. What we do know is that engine was run for a significant amount of time with no oil pressure; several minutes or more would be my guess. The way the bearings were just obliterated doesn't happen in 20 seconds of no oil pressure. That engine ran (nearly) dry for quite some time. And so the heat and drag on that oil pump belt was WAY more than what it would see in a long time span, if ever. So my point was that judging the belt's condition as if it were "normal" wear and tear is not at all applicable in this case.

I worked for Ford for 16 years; I know all about the Pinto. And if you think Ford is the only company to have ever made a fiscal decision regarding product cost vs safety, well, you're not in tune with what happens in the manufacturing world. These decisions happen ALL the time. Vehicles, appliances, medical equipment, power tools, etc etc etc ... Anything we touch as humans has a cost vs risk assessment.
Well thats a lot different than the light came on - then went off - so yes - if it ran without oil then you can't blame the belt.

As for your comment on the Pinto, yes I have worked in manufacturing my entire career, including R&D and including for a company bigger than Ford likely - I suppose it depends on when you worked there and including companies that make SIL level rated safety equipment, And yes no product is perfect and every consumer product, especially vehicles, kill people, and that is simply a trade off - you can't be perfect. I wasn't there - but the way the facts were presented in Iacocca's book were beyond anything else I have even heard of. Perhaps they were embellished for literary affect. Either way I in no way infer or think the average Ford employee had anything to do with the decisions made, and no offense to you or them were meant.
 
The bean counters figure that 90% of the owners will hit 150k and in 10-12 years and pay for the replacement. It’s the other 10% that ford will have to deal with the.
 
So, again, you’re going to take one single example of a failure after known abuse and apply it to millions of that engine family that have accumulated hundreds of millions of total miles?

Looks like you better get in good with a shoe store manager, because every single engine today has had some bonehead cause a freak failure to even the most robust engine designs. You’re gonna need some new Skechers with all the miles you’ll be walking since every vehicle is a lurking time bomb…
Absolutely, this is a great example of what happens to a wet belt design under extreme stress. All others will follow similarly if oil starved.

Chill with the passionate nonsense.
 
Absolutely, this is a great example of what happens to a wet belt design under extreme stress. All others will follow similarly if oil starved.

Chill with the passionate nonsense.

And yet, that isn't why this engine failed. Hmm... By all appearances the belt was still doing its job.

I'm sure that all other engine designs would tolerate running with 1/6th of the normal oil capacity for an unknown period of time if that belt were not there.
 
Absolutely, this is a great example of what happens to a wet belt design under extreme stress. All others will follow similarly if oil starved.

Chill with the passionate nonsense.
What about all the great examples of the failure modes of every oil pump type that’s ever been invented? Worn gears, snapped pump driveshafts, shattered gerotors, pickups that fell off, the list goes on. Are you swearing off all those types as well?

Any machine can be a smoke machine if you operate it wrong enough.
 
Back
Top