2.7 Ecoboost - An overbuilt beast with a flaw

[CKN]

I've done a lot of research on the Ford Ecoboost engines.
It's a fascinating engine with nearly every cutting edge technology (perhaps too much technology).
It's also probably harder on oil than any other engine for street vehicle use.
It's get's high temps from the twin turbos and F150's pulling 11,000 trailers up inclines at high RPMs,
it has timing chains which shear oil pretty bad,
it's a dirty engine with coolant intrusion and blowby and piston rings get dirty pretty fast.

Also, the F150's with the EcoBoost many times leave people stranded on the road at 50k miles with some $12,000 repair.

As smooth, powerful, luxurious, and super fast as it is, the reason I wouldn't buy one is the the reliability / longevity from a $ perspective.
So many owners are gettting sudden unexpected astronomical repairs bills.

If you're paying that much for a new Ford F150, you should get 200,000 miles with only minor repairs.

I know the Toyota pickups are boring and somewhat unrefined / primative compared to the F150,
but reliability and low cost of repairs (if any) is my most important criteria in buying any vehicle.

Well.....the vehicle has a 5 YEAR/60,000 MILE POWER TRAIN WARRANTY........not sure how most are getting stuck with a $12,000 repair. (National average miles per year is 12,000 miles)
Waiting for facts/references to support your post-which is only opinion until you can provide what's requested.

You know the new Tundra has Turbos....don't you?

Respectfully-your post is a mishmash of incorrect facts.

 

[snowshew]

Somewhere along the way someone (either the fellow in the video or a commenter on YouTube or here) mentioned that the oil spec (presumably Ford's) might be critical to keeping the oil pump belt from dissolving. That was probably just wild speculation, that is, there would have to be huge warnings about EXACTLY what oil to use, i.e. not just API SP, Dexos1G2, GF-6A, etc. to avoid extreme engine damage.

But on the topic, has anyone ever heard of an oil certification allowed to being hard on belts exposed to oil or conversely a belt material that needed a certain spec/cert of oil to prevent it from failing? Seems like oil-bath belt makers should be able to make the belt able to run in any available auto engine oil.

 

[Skippy722]

Thanks for that info, I'll so some research on the Toyota pickups with the ecoboost imatation.
If I ever had to make a blind prediction, I would say the Toyota version has had extreme quality assurance testing for a very long time and probably has all the bugs identified and fixed before these engines went to production. If Toyota really has a bulllet proof version of the ecoboost, that could be an F150 killer for the next 10 years.

The Tundra’s pretty much immediately suffered wastegate problems. Supposedly fixed now, but we’ll have to see.

 

[svtrit]

The thing that prompted my comment about Nader was that he was the one who realized that the most efficient way to increase profits at Ford was to cut production costs. I'm paraphrasing, but he is said to have said something like "If we can save 10 cents per car and build 100,000 cars, that's $10,000. Around here we'll kill for a buck (per car)".

Now think of all the times you've been frustrated by a cheap broken factory part, and thought "What would it have cost them to have made this just a little bit better?"

There was a documentary on the design of the new Mustang on a Netflix years ago. They said that exact thing except using a penny instead of $0.10.

 

[Number_35]

There was a documentary on the design of the new Mustang on a Netflix years ago. They said that exact thing except using a penny instead of $0.10.

Ack! I said Nader in my comment - of course I meant McNamara. I suspect you read it as I intended.

The new Mustang was the original '64-1/2? I could see McNamara's influence still being strong at Ford, even though he had moved into the political realm by that time, and was busy with plans for Vietnam.

 

[Number_35]

I've done a lot of research on the Ford Ecoboost engines.
It's a fascinating engine with nearly every cutting edge technology (perhaps too much technology).
It's also probably harder on oil than any other engine for street vehicle use.
It's get's high temps from the twin turbos and F150's pulling 11,000 trailers up inclines at high RPMs,
it has timing chains which shear oil pretty bad,
it's a dirty engine with coolant intrusion and blowby and piston rings get dirty pretty fast.

Also, the F150's with the EcoBoost many times leave people stranded on the road at 50k miles with some $12,000 repair.

As smooth, powerful, luxurious, and super fast as it is, the reason I wouldn't buy one is the the reliability / longevity from a $ perspective.
So many owners are gettting sudden unexpected astronomical repairs bills.

If you're paying that much for a new Ford F150, you should get 200,000 miles with only minor repairs.

I know the Toyota pickups are boring and somewhat unrefined / primative compared to the F150,
but reliability and low cost of repairs (if any) is my most important criteria in buying any vehicle.

It sounds like frequent oil changes using a high-quality oil could mitigate a lot of the Ecoboost engine issues you've described.

 

[Bill7]

Well.....the vehicle has a 5 YEAR/60,000 MILE POWER TRAIN WARRANTY........not sure how most are getting stuck with a $12,000 repair. (National average miles per year is 12,000 miles)
Waiting for facts/references to support your post-which is only opinion until you can provide what's requested.

You know the new Tundra has Turbos....don't you?

Respectfully-your post is a mishmash of incorrect facts.

I'm only forming this viewpoint based on hundreds of posts I've read on the Ford F150 and Ford Truck forums.
The only entity with all the facts is likely Ford, who has all the statistical data from all the dealership repairs, and that is likely confidential.

 

[Cujet]

While I am not a fan of the belt in this location, the story of the demise of this engine needs to be taken into account as well.

The engine was run 5 quarts low on oil for an undetermined amount of time until the oil pressure light came on. It was then refilled, then driven longer until its actual failure.

The concern here is over the wear in a belt that was at an angle that was more extreme than it would ever see in use in the engine (the person taking the video even states that), and it was run in a wet location with 1/6 of the normal oil amount. Anyone think that perhaps there was some extra heat / wear / etc under this scenario? Could some of the wear seen been from this setup of circumstances?

I agree. A possible clue is that the dipstick was blown out. That does not happen unless the engine was seriously over-pressurized inside. Takes about 50PSI. I'm guessing hot combustion gasses were entering the crankcase, due to poor ring seal. Clearly, one cylinder was rough looking. Possibly this resulted in an overheated belt and the degradation he noticed.

Annoys me that a belt is used here.

 

[cptbarkey]

I agree. A possible clue is that the dipstick was blown out. That does not happen unless the engine was seriously over-pressurized inside. Takes about 50PSI. I'm guessing hot combustion gasses were entering the crankcase, due to poor ring seal. Clearly, one cylinder was rough looking. Possibly this resulted in an overheated belt and the degradation he noticed.

Annoys me that a belt is used here.

Step 1 of some mechanics is to pull the dipstick and let it dangle when changing the oil.

 

[Bill7]

It sounds like frequent oil changes using a high-quality oil could mitigate a lot of the Ecoboost engine issues you've described.

I totally agree. Ford recommends 10k OCI with semi synthetic.
I think 5k OCI with a full synthetic is what I would choose.

Personally, if I owned an F150 with the Ecoboost, I would use a Euro A3/B4 full saps 5W-30 with HTHS >= 3.5 and high levels of phosphorous and zinc to help protect the timing chain and withstand the heat of the turbos.

 

[Fabulous50s]

And....?

Every engine I have worked on (a lot) which has a toothed belt it is intended to be dry. Oil contamination of a timing belt is a recipe for replacement. Wet belts don't have a good long term track record.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I'm only forming this viewpoint based on hundreds of posts I've read on the Ford F150 and Ford Truck forums.
The only entity with all the facts is likely Ford, who has all the statistical data from all the dealership repairs, and that is likely confidential.

Not entirely true… HPL has had a government fleet contract for over a decade, accumulating roughly 180 million fleet miles per year (so cumulative 2+ billion miles and hundreds of thousands of hours idling) with 5k filter changes and 15k oil changes, and does not see anywhere near the rate of phaser or timing chain issues that the overall 3.5 population sees.

I would accept your premise if you said average oil quality of available shelf stock oils was insufficient, or that the average owner does not properly maintain their vehicles, or that Ford could/should update their recommendations… but not the blanket statement that the EcoBoost is incapable of extended OCIs. HPL’s fleet data is simply too great a sample size to discount.

 

[Number_35]

I agree. A possible clue is that the dipstick was blown out. That does not happen unless the engine was seriously over-pressurized inside. Takes about 50PSI. I'm guessing hot combustion gasses were entering the crankcase, due to poor ring seal. Clearly, one cylinder was rough looking. Possibly this resulted in an overheated belt and the degradation he noticed.

Annoys me that a belt is used here.

That happens here in the winter to some vehicles - sludgy moisture freezes in the PCV system. Popping the dipstick out is way better than blowing out the rear main seal, etc.

 

[350Rocket]

9 model years, 2 different displacements, 12 or 13 different vehicle models across 2 different brands, millions of engines in service. Guess we’ll have to wait to decide on the “Nano” engine. Can’t possibly make a determination with that amount of data.

What I meant is some things (like that oil pump belt likely) won't become a problem until at least 10+ years regardless of mileage.
I remember when we thought the V6 in the 2010+ Taurus was an extremely reliable engine. Until the water pumps started failing many years later, financially writing off the car.

 

[UncleDave]

I agree. A possible clue is that the dipstick was blown out. That does not happen unless the engine was seriously over-pressurized inside. Takes about 50PSI. I'm guessing hot combustion gasses were entering the crankcase, due to poor ring seal. Clearly, one cylinder was rough looking. Possibly this resulted in an overheated belt and the degradation he noticed.

Annoys me that a belt is used here.

Id surmise - jumping on it or towing when cold without sufficient warmup.

The belt is all bad news- didnt realize that till this thread. That takes out the 2.7 for me.

 

[UncleDave]

What I meant is some things (like that oil pump belt likely) won't become a problem until at least 10+ years regardless of mileage.
I remember when we thought the V6 in the 2010+ Taurus was an extremely reliable engine. Until the water pumps started failing many years later, financially writing off the car.

I get that - thing is I keep stuff about 20, and that means two cycles on this particular maintenance.

I'm just now starting to look but my 04 titan is still pulling hard and is still a nice truck - especially with the mods I've put in.

 

[UncleDave]

Not entirely true… HPL has had a government fleet contract for over a decade, accumulating roughly 180 million fleet miles per year (so cumulative 2+ billion miles and hundreds of thousands of hours idling) with 5k filter changes and 15k oil changes, and does not see anywhere near the rate of phaser or timing chain issues that the overall 3.5 population sees.

I would accept your premise if you said average oil quality of available shelf stock oils was insufficient, or that the average owner does not properly maintain their vehicles, or that Ford could/should update their recommendations… but not the blanket statement that the EcoBoost is incapable of extended OCIs. HPL’s fleet data is simply too great a sample size to discount.

It would be super interesting to know what the condemnation points look like and what is most often thy tipping factor.

 

[dnewton3]

Every engine I have worked on (a lot) which has a toothed belt it is intended to be dry. Oil contamination of a timing belt is a recipe for replacement. Wet belts don't have a good long term track record.

So the engines you've encountered represent ALL engines known to exist?

Did it ever occur to you that the design and material selection for the "wet" belt are different from those you've seen? That maybe belts which are actually intended for "wet" applications use different chemistry for the belt materials and different design considerations for that unique application? Or, that maybe things have changed in terms of production capabilities? Etc ...

The point is that the belt in the video was criticized for looking to be in poor shape. However, most of have reasonably noted that the oil pump suffered from the unknown root cause of engine failure, and was not, in and of itself, the root cause of said failure. Had the engine not been grossly run dry of any lubricant, the belt probably would look in a lot better shape, despite its 92k miles of use with a terminal ending.

 

[kehyler]

What was that smallish Milwaukee impact-like driver he was using? That seems handy for small bolts.

 

[Nukeman7]

What was that smallish Milwaukee impact-like driver he was using? That seems handy for small bolts.

It's not cheap, but worth every penny.