1st time actually noticing a viscosity difference..

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

But the thicker oil will leave a thicker film to be present at startup before that exact same flow speed reaches the tensioners, or whatever. Right?

No actually, it wont.

Surface finish, temp, motive forces and good old gravity will do like everything else and pull it all to the pan leaving what could best be described as a "thin coat" ( this obviously does not include areas like grooves, channels, valleys or other areas where liquid oil can be captured and held.)

Technically that's a "film" but not the trade use of the term.

That "thin coat" has no significant strength or resiliency of its own whatsoever and will only hold whatever additive may be stuck there by tackifiers in the oil.

Get a few strips of clean metal of various surface finishes and dip them in oil then let then hang- you will see for yourself what's left.

Most often a good corrosion barrier, holds a miniscule part of additives but very little else.

 

[Silver]

No actually, it wont.

Surface finish, temp, motive forces and good old gravity will do like everything else and pull it all to the pan leaving what could best be described as a "thin coat" ( this obviously does not include areas like grooves, channels, valleys or other areas where liquid oil can be captured and held.)

Technically that's a "film" but not the trade use of the term.

That "thin coat" has no significant strength or resiliency of its own whatsoever and will only hold whatever additive may be stuck there by tackifiers in the oil.

Get a few strips of clean metal of various surface finishes and dip them in oil then let then hang- you will see for yourself what's left.

Most often a good corrosion barrier, holds a miniscule part of additives but very little else.

Ok so you're saying the film thickness left over from various viscosities of oil will be pretty much the same thickness?

Also, couldn't this oil be "captured and held" in the links of the chain, or between the chain and tensioner arms, somewhat helping the dry start?

 

[PimTac]

A base oil blend then an additive package is added to achieve an oil that meets or exceeds the requirements of the specs needed to meet the rating.

The answer has been posted here many times.

 

[PimTac]

I’m guessing QS relies on mostly moly while M1 uses a bit of moly and other aw? Most of this beyond the simplistic goes way over my head

Not quite.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Ok so you're saying the film thickness left over from various viscosities of oil will be pretty much the same thickness?

Exactly

Also, couldn't this oil be "captured and held" in the links of the chain, or between the chain and tensioner arms, somewhat helping the dry start?

No, that's basically impossible ( and this comes from decades of designing and troubleshooting every type of chain conveyor lube system known to exist). A timing chain on a car is not physically or mechanically different than any other chain drive- they all have the same weaknesses in lubrication.

Bear in mind this is in the condition known as "dry start" where all oil is in the sump.

First, "oil" that doesn't work its way into the pin area is doing nothing more than wetting a chain and making a mess when it slings off.

"Oil" has no worth whatsoever ( other than to prevent surface corrosion and maybe washing) on the external parts of the chain.

The sprocket is hardened as are the rollers. That oil film isn't lubricating anything.

Now the engine is on and there's oil flow ( gone from dry start to run mode)- the oils viscosity (not film strength) does act like a hydraulic damper as the various rollers ride through the sprocket. Not lubrication in the textbook sense but damping a physical effect.

Here is a "test example" I have used to illustrated this point in various trainings.

Get a piece of chain ( a few links will do) and a pan with oil in it. Put it in the pan and scratch the bottom.

The submergence in oil ( film strength and all that) didn't overcome the contact forces of the finger scraping there and it certainly will not overcome the forces a chain in service sees either.

"dunk stations" ( oil cans the chain runs through) are designed to get oil to the pin area to avoid wear ( called stretch) making a chain last longer.

Lubrications on the chain/sprocket part help a bit UNTIL there is mechanical wear to the point it affects geometry then its nothing more than a placebo.

 

[wpod]

The answer has been posted here many times.

The question is still being asked.

 

[earthbound]

But the thicker oil will leave a thicker film to be present at startup before that exact same flow speed reaches the tensioners, or whatever. Right?

this is what i would like to think is really causing the difference, but what do i know...guess this theory was debunked...

 

[earthbound]

Exactly


No, that's basically impossible ( and this comes from decades of designing and troubleshooting every type of chain conveyor lube system known to exist). A timing chain on a car is not physically or mechanically different than any other chain drive- they all have the same weaknesses in lubrication.

Bear in mind this is in the condition known as "dry start" where all oil is in the sump.

First, "oil" that doesn't work its way into the pin area is doing nothing more than wetting a chain and making a mess when it slings off.

"Oil" has no worth whatsoever ( other than to prevent surface corrosion and maybe washing) on the external parts of the chain.

The sprocket is hardened as are the rollers. That oil film isn't lubricating anything.

Now the engine is on and there's oil flow ( gone from dry start to run mode)- the oils viscosity (not film strength) does act like a hydraulic damper as the various rollers ride through the sprocket. Not lubrication in the textbook sense but damping a physical effect.

Here is a "test example" I have used to illustrated this point in various trainings.

Get a piece of chain ( a few links will do) and a pan with oil in it. Put it in the pan and scratch the bottom.

The submergence in oil ( film strength and all that) didn't overcome the contact forces of the finger scraping there and it certainly will not overcome the forces a chain in service sees either.

"dunk stations" ( oil cans the chain runs through) are designed to get oil to the pin area to avoid wear ( called stretch) making a chain last longer.

Lubrications on the chain/sprocket part help a bit UNTIL there is mechanical wear to the point it affects geometry then its nothing more than a placebo.

so in your opinion what is the cause/effect I'm hearing??

 

[4WD]

No actually, it wont.

Surface finish, temp, motive forces and good old gravity will do like everything else and pull it all to the pan leaving what could best be described as a "thin coat" ( this obviously does not include areas like grooves, channels, valleys or other areas where liquid oil can be captured and held.)

Technically that's a "film" but not the trade use of the term.

That "thin coat" has no significant strength or resiliency of its own whatsoever and will only hold whatever additive may be stuck there by tackifiers in the oil.

Get a few strips of clean metal of various surface finishes and dip them in oil then let then hang- you will see for yourself what's left.

Most often a good corrosion barrier, holds a miniscule part of additives but very little else.

Yep … It runs off hot metal parts like butter in a sideways skillet

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

so in your opinion what is the cause/effect I'm hearing??

Need to ask for clarification before I answer please. Which specific cause/effect are you referring to?

 

[PimTac]

The question is still being asked.

So, to tickle your brain, if one oil has 400ppm of moly and another 100ppm but they use different forms of moly, which one is better?

 

[earthbound]

Need to ask for clarification before I answer please. Which specific cause/effect are you referring to?

that I do not hear any T.C. noise upon start-up using qsud 5w30, but did using mobil ep 0w20

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

this is what i would like to think is really causing the difference, but what do i know...guess this theory was debunked...

I wouldn't say debunked but moved to extremely unlikely.

Here is the problem with any online chain diagnosis- its identifying and separating normal noise from defect-in-progress noise and knowing where each begins and ends. because by nature of its design- chains make noise. ( this is coming from using UT to listen to them and sometimes a high speed camera, much more difficult doing it remotely relying on words)

First, we don't know exactly what the noise is in terms of component of the chain, its location or specific duration. That means the noise could come from misalignment, tension, wear or a thousand other causes. We also don't know if the noise is a grind, slip, impact, what frequency or amplitude because that's a critical part of diagnosing machine "noise" with any degree of accuracy.

So if your account is accurate in description and remedy then we can logically believe that the cause is directly affected by a very small change in oil properties. If accurate, that does give specific things to look at.

If you were my client and I was hearing your case over the phone without being present to examine- here would be my estimate of most likely scenarios.

I would say the most probably scenario is there is more film in the pins which damps the initial series of clicks until the splashed oil works into then during operation. ( a very common thing in almost all non O-ring chains). I base that on the fact that when using multi grade oils ( unlike their ISO counterparts in most cases) a motor oil is a thinner base stock usually that heat thickens so in a semi captive "galley" like the capillary area between a pin and roller would normally retain slightly more volume of a more viscous fluid when stopped. ( with gravity being the main force pulling it out)

I validate that based on industrial chains ( usually much longer runs) that when run through the lube station they get almost silent but as that oil gets mechanically driven from the roller/pin interface, they gradually make more noise until they sound almost like playing marbles with ball bearings.

I imagine you are experiencing something very similar.

 

[92saturnsl2]

I would say the most probably scenario is there is more film in the pins which damps the initial series of clicks until the splashed oil works into then during operation. ( a very common thing in almost all non O-ring chains). I base that on the fact that when using multi grade oils ( unlike their ISO counterparts in most cases) a motor oil is a thinner base stock usually that heat thickens so in a semi captive "galley" like the capillary area between a pin and roller would normally retain slightly more volume of a more viscous fluid when stopped. ( with gravity being the main force pulling it out)

The above seems to contradict your earlier statement:

No actually, it wont.

Surface finish, temp, motive forces and good old gravity will do like everything else and pull it all to the pan leaving what could best be described as a "thin coat" ( this obviously does not include areas like grooves, channels, valleys or other areas where liquid oil can be captured and held.)

Technically that's a "film" but not the trade use of the term.

I believe the poster who asked the question was simply asking whether a more vicious oil might leave behind a more robust or longer lasting oil film, which might contribute to less noise at startup.

But if *all* oil falls to the pan as you suggest, I'm certainly curious how startup noise is affected by oil viscosity.

I did a test earlier on two of my kids' bike chains. Sitting out in the cold, about 30F or so, I poured a half capful of 5w-20 and 15w-40 on a 2" section of each chain. About 3 hours later, I came back and ran my hands on the chain, and the one which I'd applied the 15w-40 to had a noticeably thicker oil film on it. No scientific measurements, but there was a distinct difference. I set cardboard underneath each, and it was clear that more 5w-20 was present on the cardboard (dripped off the chain) than the other. Is there any reason that oil on an engine timing chain wouldn't behave in a similar fashion after engine shutdown?

 

[mpack88]

I have experienced the exact same thing in my 1988 Ford F150 302. I've always had 10w30 or 10w40 in it. And it always rattled a little bit after startup with a delay in oil pressure. And I did some experiments with 5w30, 5w40 then 15w40. 15w40 has oil pressure as soon as the engine starts.

 

[snowshew]

"I believe the poster who asked the question was simply asking whether a more vicious oil might leave behind a more robust or longer lasting oil film, which might contribute to less noise at startup.

But if *all* oil falls to the pan as you suggest, I'm certainly curious how startup noise is affected by oil viscosity.

I did a test earlier on two of my kids' bike chains. Sitting out in the cold, about 30F or so, I poured a half capful of 5w-20 and 15w-40 on a 2" section of each chain. About 3 hours later, I came back and ran my hands on the chain, and the one which I'd applied the 15w-40 to had a noticeably thicker oil film on it. "

I am still trying to get my head around the conclusions of the senior posters... kschachn said "The thicker oil quiets your chain noise due to a thicker film" but that seems to contradict abn_cb_engr, if I understand his comments. Additionally and related to my question above, I still wonder if it is the 5w/15w or 20/40 differences, OR something else, like an additive providing benefit during dry starts. Is it ALL placebo? That is, are all oils are equally worthless until there is oil flow and only then do differences in base stock, additives, viscosity, etc. come into play?

 

[OilUzer]

If you put even thicker stuff like grease on that bike chain, it won't drip at all. We are talking about a fixed 30F temperature for that chain.

idk, without any scientific proof, I "feel" that thicker stuff should hang in there longer ... However if "longer" is long enough, and/or temperatures are warm/hot enough, they should all drip down quickly. I mean when we turn the engine off, the parts could be at 250-400F+ temperature and at those temps, I think the viscosity diffs (between a thick vs. thin oil) may not be as significant when it comes to drips. They all would be "thin" enough to drip relatively quickly and the same.

However, the stuff or anything that clings better like ester, moly, etc. should help the startup (cold temps) but once things get rolling (hydrodynamic lubrication zone), thicker oils should provide better protection and moft. No?

I'm sure experts will correct me immediately. lol

 

[bbhero]

The above seems to contradict your earlier statement:



I believe the poster who asked the question was simply asking whether a more vicious oil might leave behind a more robust or longer lasting oil film, which might contribute to less noise at startup.

But if *all* oil falls to the pan as you suggest, I'm certainly curious how startup noise is affected by oil viscosity.

I did a test earlier on two of my kids' bike chains. Sitting out in the cold, about 30F or so, I poured a half capful of 5w-20 and 15w-40 on a 2" section of each chain. About 3 hours later, I came back and ran my hands on the chain, and the one which I'd applied the 15w-40 to had a noticeably thicker oil film on it. No scientific measurements, but there was a distinct difference. I set cardboard underneath each, and it was clear that more 5w-20 was present on the cardboard (dripped off the chain) than the other. Is there any reason that oil on an engine timing chain wouldn't behave in a similar fashion after engine shutdown?

I like your "test" example here...

I believe your observation in that case. I believe that makes sense.

In a hot motor though.... At an average oil sump temp around 100°C....

Whether it be a 15w or 5w... That hot oil is going to drain down very, very quickly after shut down. With no difference between those two oils in terms of oil film left behind.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

The above seems to contradict your earlier statement:

It wasn't meant to but these are some very fine lines/points and the distinction can get lost within the confines of a post. I can see where it could be viewed that way so let me try again.

I believe the poster who asked the question was simply asking whether a more vicious oil might leave behind a more robust or longer lasting oil film, which might contribute to less noise at startup.

But if *all* oil falls to the pan as you suggest, I'm certainly curious how startup noise is affected by oil viscosity.

The big thing here is the distinction with a difference between a "film" and an actual accumulated volume of liquid ( which has all the damping and hydraulic properties of a liquid) and the other DWID of viscosity being defined as a resistance to flow- not its "thickness" (per se)

The left behind oil film is all but worthless for much of anything relating to this- the remaining bulk liquid trapped inside what amounts to a journal bearing ( pin/roller area) means a lot.

I did a test earlier on two of my kids' bike chains. Sitting out in the cold, about 30F or so, I poured a half capful of 5w-20 and 15w-40 on a 2" section of each chain. About 3 hours later, I came back and ran my hands on the chain, and the one which I'd applied the 15w-40 to had a noticeably thicker oil film on it. "

I would counter that in relation to the subject discussed that the test is in no way represented of the actual conditions of the subject matter. The bike chain's tension ( relative to the timing chain) is unknown. The chain was not subject to centrifugal and mechanical forces. The viscosity of the oil wand components were not at operating temperature.

Based on all of the above, I have to call the test invalid.

am still trying to get my head around the conclusions of the senior posters...

I can only say this ( and yes this is ALL with industrial chains- none with automotive but a chain is a chain)

I have been commissioned to design, implement, troubleshoot and problem solve thousands of chain drives from conveyors to pulp/paper to mining. I have worked with every major manufacturer on this planet in doing so. I use every technology that exists as well as teams of other SME's to evaluate these things and get answers. I also do laboratory level RCFA on these systems after the fact. I have a very good understanding of what I am saying and hundreds of scenarios to base it on.

All that to say this as I also pointed out. There are ways to analyze these noises and not only determine the conditions creating them but actually pinpoint them physically along the chain/sprocket path ( just like we can do in vibration) when we employ multiple technologies.

Once all that is done, the corrective solution is often easy to create. ( as much as the working system will allow- some chain drives by virtue of what they do destroy a chain group and its a run -to- fail thing)

So, in this case- without all that "stuff" on the noise in question, this is all speculation based on hunches and that's good. It puts fresh ideas out there and makes people think out of the box. That being said, that's not an excuse or reason to go down every rabbit hole because even with a broad based claim like we have- certain facts can be reasonably gleaned from it.

Simply put there are certain things oil can and cannot do for a chain. "Film strength" ( specific to this thread and the common use on this site) is not one of them.

Hope that clarified it a little better.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

If you put even thicker stuff like grease on that bike chain, it won't drip at all.

"feel" that thicker stuff should hang in there longer

Let me point this out. Putting lubrication ( grease or oil) ON a chain is right up there with putting Neosporin on a sucking chest wound.

If the lubrication does not get fully into the pin/roller area- it effective accomplishes little positive but can hold contamination enhancing external wear.

If there is mechanical wear ( say from a worn sprocket, misalignment or whatever) no lubricant or lube system known to exist is going to remedy that, hide it or make it go away.

Almost 99% of the time that "clicky sound" is he pins being loaded ( not dissimilar to hearing a train pull all couplers tight)

Just FYI