1999 Avalon - HM or no?

[k0nane]

So I've been lurking here for a while and decided to register and put this one out there. I'm advising a friend who bought a 99 Avalon about a month ago; it's currently at about 155k miles. The mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection didn't find any oil leaks except one developing around the oil pan gasket (which is about to be replaced). Service records are pretty spotty on the thing, but we know the last change was done by Walmart with whatever bargain-basement dino they had on hand (SuperTech?).

The owner wants to keep this car running as long as possible, and is willing to spend a couple extra $ for better oil to do so. I've used nothing but M1 in my personal car (in sig) since I got it in '09, but that's a very different engine and I know M1 would be way overkill for this Avalon. I am leaning toward advising synthetic, though. I've checked prices for:

- ST full syn
- Napa full syn
- all the big brands

Nothing exciting as far as sales right now in my area or (that I can find) online. AAP is running Mobil Super Syn with a Purolator filter for $24.99, and that's looking like my winner, unless said filter is garbage. ST and a Fram Tough Guard is a few cents cheaper.

My question is - am I entirely out of line? Either way, should the owner go for HM oil, if he's interested in preserving the thing as long as possible? I'm thinking 5-7.5k OCI, and most of the mileage is going to be in-town at 4-9mi per trip. The car is in Alabama, so temps will (almost) never be a factor.

Thanks!

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: k0nane
I know M1 would be way overkill for this Avalon.

'99 Avalon has the VVT-i equipped 1MZ-FE; synthetic is definitely not overkill.

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
'99 Avalon has the VVT-i equipped 1MZ-FE; synthetic is definitely not overkill.

Good point, but I specifically meant M1, not necessarily all synthetics - hence my potential pick of Mobil Super Syn. Saves $9 vs. M1.

Maybe I'm wrong there too?

 

[jacky]

i would use hm possible valvoline full synthetic
also i dont think anything would be an overkill, avalon is a expensive car regardless of the year

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: jacky
i would use hm possible valvoline full synthetic
also i dont think anything would be an overkill, avalon is a expensive car regardless of the year

Definitely was once... bought for $2k now. There's a reason it survived 6 owners in such good shape. My understanding from digging here is that HM is better if consumption starts going higher or more seals start leaking. Neither seem to be the case. Why would you go HM, prevention?

 

[Tones]

As I recall, these engines were sludge prone. I would do an autorx cleanup of the engine and then use Mobil 1 or other good quality synthetic. The HM would be useful if it is smoking.

 

[jacky]

hm does more than fix or prevent leaks. it's even safe for new cars, i know its just an advertisement but read read on valvoline website about hm oil.
worn or high mile engines have different needs than newer motors

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: Tones
As I recall, these engines were sludge prone. I would do an autorx cleanup of the engine and then use Mobil 1 or other good quality synthetic. The HM would be useful if it is smoking.


I've read the same. No smoke, thankfully; M1 (incl. HM) + M1 filter is $34 at AAP right now, so about a wash with Valvoline Full Syn HM and a good filter. Any reasonable way to tell if the Auto-Rx is actually necessary? $21.95/bottle * however many bottles is going to be a tougher sell for the owner.

Originally Posted By: jacky
hm does more than fix or prevent leaks. it's even safe for new cars, i know its just an advertisement but read read on valvoline website about hm oil.
worn or high mile engines have different needs than newer motors

I know they have different needs. More detergents and anti-wear additives in HM, fair enough - I guess I don't know if there's a significant benefit vs. something like regular M1 which already has a good additive pack. I'm unsure if I'd put HM in my G35 with more miles than the Avalon, even though it's seen way more miles per year and has been driven much harder. (That's another thread...)

 

[Nick1994]

Mobil 1 HM stopped a small leak on my Jeep.

Look into the Fram Ultra for a filter. Made very well, and the oil filters on the 1MZ-FE is a pain to get to. The rubber end makes it nice to grab a hold of.

 

[Ramblejam]

Here's a UOA I posted a few years back (2013); this is also a '99 VVT-i 1MZ-FE. Filter was a Motorcraft FL-400S. This combo is under $30 at Walmart, and returned excellent results.

P.S. - Make sure to change the PCV Valve! Toyota revised part has a red top. The one you'll get from the local parts store will have a black top.

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Look into the Fram Ultra for a filter. Made very well, and the oil filters on the 1MZ-FE is a pain to get to. The rubber end makes it nice to grab a hold of.

Thanks for the tip, I'll make sure the owner knows.

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Here's a UOA I posted a few years back (2013); this is also a '99 VVT-i 1MZ-FE. Filter was a Motorcraft FL-400S. This combo is under $30 at Walmart, and returned excellent results:

Thanks for sharing! That does look good - I take the 9k OCI recommendation as quite a vote of confidence.

That filter is truly dirt cheap. An extra $4.17 for M1 (HM) vs. MSS seems well worth it.

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
P.S. - Make sure to change the PCV Valve! Toyota revised part has a red top. The one you'll get from the local parts store will have a black top.

This is where I wish I had the service history, but it's cheap enough to just do.

 

[THafeez]

Okay so you want a good syn, probably are considering the HM route as well. Head to your local Walmart as AAP has all their prices jacked up and unless you get a significant discount, you can get Valvoline Synpower with Maxlife (HM) for 22.XX dollars and a Fram Ultra for about 8-9 dollars at Walmart. All in it should be around 33-34 dollars including tax. Can't beat that combo. Run it for 5-6k and change it out. If the Ultra seems pricey or overkill, then the Fram Tough Guard or Extra Guard are good enough for 5-6k as well. Maybe try an Ultra after a few cleaning cycles.

If you can, have the mechanic open up the valve cover to check if theres any sludge. If no sludge is visible and it's just varnish, then Autorx isn't exactly necessary. Any full syn with a good add pack and reasonable OCIs will keep that engine running to 300k. There's a user here whose had a Lexus with that engine since new. Used a full syn oil and limited OCIs to 5k. It's still running strong to this day.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

This is a fantastic engine if well cared for. No reason to over think it. If he wants to be budget friendly nothing wrong with Valvoline MaxLife (conventional or Synthetic) or SuperTech Synthetic at a 5k OCI. I have the 3MZ in my Lexus and it returned excellent UOA on normal SynPower. I wouldn't use a Purolator filter on a bet though. A fram orange can or tough guard should be plenty. Or just buy OE Toyota filters from a dealership or on eBay. At 5k OCI any major Synthetic blend or Synthetic should be fine. Personally I like the SuperTech and TG filter idea the best out of the ones given.

Additionally skip the "engine flush" advice, it's more likely to cause harm then good in this engine of there is any buildup. Just change the oil and motor on.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

Link to the post for SynPower in my Lexus with the 3.3 3MZ that's derived from the 1MZ on SynPower.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...30_#Post4146844

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: THafeez
you can get Valvoline Synpower with Maxlife (HM) for 22.XX dollars and a Fram Ultra for about 8-9 dollars at Walmart. All in it should be around 33-34 dollars including tax. Can't beat that combo.

Even vs. M1 HM and M1 EP filter, at the same $ total? I instinctively trust M1 EP filters after running them so long on a higher-performance engine. You're not wrong on AAP except with M1 combos, I typically can't beat them at Walmart or online.

Originally Posted By: THafeez
If you can, have the mechanic open up the valve cover to check if theres any sludge.

This would have been a great idea a month ago when I arranged the PPI... at this point it may be too $$$ in labor to be on the table.

Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
Personally I like the SuperTech and TG filter idea the best out of the ones given. Additionally skip the "engine flush" advice, it's more likely to cause harm then good in this engine of there is any buildup. Just change the oil and motor on. Link to the post for SynPower in my Lexus with the 3.3 3MZ that's derived from the 1MZ on SynPower.

I'm skeptical of the Auto-Rx route, yeah. That's one vote for the ST... Thanks for the UOA, that looks pretty comparable to Ramblejam's overall.

I think my new contender list is:

- M1 HM + M1 EP filter ($33.99, Autozone)
- M1 HM + Motorcraft filter ($29.44, Walmart or Amazon - looks like the FL-910S is the fit for the Avalon)
- Valvoline Full Syn HM + Fram TG filter ($29.27, Walmart)
- ST full syn + Fram TG filter on the el cheapo end ($24.27, Walmart)

 

[THafeez]

thing is M1 and an M1 filter for 5k is just overkill. When those filters say they can go 15k they mean it. So no point in spending that much money if it's gonna be thrown away after just 5k. Use the supertech syn or valvoline syn HM and the fram tough guard for a few 3-5k OCIs to clean up the engine. He is traveling only 4-9 miles per day which isn't good on the engine because the oil doesn't get to operating temp even if you are in the South. Just to play it safe, I wouldn't go over 5k on any oil in that engine and that daily distance. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: THafeez
thing is M1 and an M1 filter for 5k is just overkill. When those filters say they can go 15k they mean it.

This is good news for my daily, since I may have let it run for 12+k prior to my last change... Oops

Unless there's any harm in it, I'll probably keep the G at 'overkill' status. A few extra bucks for peace of mind on a hard-ish-driven ride is fine by me, and I often pick up the package for $30-33 anyway.

Originally Posted By: THafeez
He is traveling only 4-9 miles per day which isn't good on the engine because the oil doesn't get to operating temp even if you are in the South. Just to play it safe, I wouldn't go over 5k on any oil in that engine and that daily distance.

That's per trip, whole days are more than that, but spaced out (~5mi to/from work, normal shift hours, plus some other local trips). Even so, that seems reasonable. 4-5k OCI is doable.

edit: That said - M1 itself isn't bad at $25.47, so would an M1 filter run for 2-3 OCIs be reasonable, or should the filter be changed every time as a rule?

 

[FlyNavyP3]

If I was going to run any filter for more than one oil change it'd be the Fram Ultra, not the M1. I just like the Fram better. That being said I ran a Motorcraft FL910S to ~9,100 miles on my Lexus with no drama. I don't see any reason to run an extended drain filter unless you're going to use it for the long haul. I'd do whatever you're comfortable with, mid tier filter for one OCI or an extended for multiple.

 

[k0nane]

Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
I'd do whatever you're comfortable with, mid tier filter for one OCI or an extended for multiple.

Pretty similar in cost over three changes, too - $28.31/change for one M1 filter and 3x 5-quart jugs of M1 HM vs. $29.27/change for Valvoline Full Syn + Fram TG.

I think that's the pair now, unless someone has a good reason otherwise. From everything in this thread it seems like the owner would have good results with either. The extended filter potentially means less hassle if the owner agrees with Nick1994.

 

[anndel]

I have a 05 Avalon with 89,000 miles. Been using M1 HM since it hit 70,000 miles.