1998 Civic CV boot torn - re-boot or replace axle

[wing0]

Originally Posted By: supton

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd reboot if the boot looks good. I get the temptation to do so, you'd know it was new; but old doesn't mean it's about to go. If it had significantly less miles I'd probably not. IMO, and just my option, I'd want to remove the current axle "fast" so that it isn't getting any more damage. Swap in the used axle as-is. Reboot the one you have, in case it needs to go back in.

The half-shaft has two boots on it, for the two joints. Your car has two half-shafts, thus 4 boots and four CV's. He's saying to leave the inner boot (and CV) alone. The outer boot sees all the "abuse" of turning, while the inner boot (and CV) sees much less flexing. The outer sees the full turn-to-turn steering, while the inner only see some flexing from when you go over big bumps. As a result, the inners usually are fine to leave alone.

[The inner and outer CV's are different types, optimized for their usage. Outer has a wide range of flexibility, while the inner is more limited--but has the addition ability of being able to adjust its length. wikipedia etc would explain far better. Just a tidbit of random info not really relevant to the job at hand, but may be fun to look up and read up on.]


Yes, I'm trying to get the used OE axle as quickly as I can and if it looks good physically, I will get mechanic to put it in asap to retrieve the original one back.

I wasn't going to touch the inner boot at all, the outer boot is already giving enough grief.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: wing0
I wasn't going to touch the inner boot at all, the outer boot is already giving enough grief.

You can't get the outer boot off until you remove the inner tripod and boot. And once you have the old inner boot off, it seems silly to put it back again.

One thing you will discover is that if you don't get the new boots on perfectly cleanly, the joint will seep oil forever, and will look like a mess. And the old inner boot will have oil all over the place...

For the little extra money, I'd replace both boots and do the job right.

I have not yet personally encountered an aftermarket shaft of any kind that felt like an OEM one; they're all pretty low-quality.

 

[wing0]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: wing0
I wasn't going to touch the inner boot at all, the outer boot is already giving enough grief.

You can't get the outer boot off until you remove the inner tripod and boot. And once you have the old inner boot off, it seems silly to put it back again.

One thing you will discover is that if you don't get the new boots on perfectly cleanly, the joint will seep oil forever, and will look like a mess. And the old inner boot will have oil all over the place...

For the little extra money, I'd replace both boots and do the job right.

I have not yet personally encountered an aftermarket shaft of any kind that felt like an OEM one; they're all pretty low-quality.


I looked up a video that shows how to replace the outer boot in the CV axle.

Isn't it similar to this?

 

[Ducked]

In the UK you can buy "universal" split boot kits, which I suppose is the minimum fix. You cut them to length/diameter and super glue them together round the assembly, then fix the ends with hefty cable ties

I've fitted them twice, once to a Renault5, once to a Nissan Sunny. For the Renault I took the shaft off anyway (easy job) and cleaned it up in the workplace staff kitchen at the weekend, so I might as well have fitted a "real" boot.

For the Sunny I was working in an Edinburgh street in the winter so I just replaced most of the grease and fitted the replacement boot.

Wasn't especially optimistic but they lasted for the few years the cars did.

For grease removal, I used spoons, drinking straws, coffee stirrers, paper towel and finally pipe cleaners. Opinions seem to vary on solvent but I didn't use any because I thought it'd do more harm than good.

Drinking straws are good because you can cut a point on them, they squash to conform to surfaces, and they store the grease they scrape off.

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: Tegger

I have not yet personally encountered an aftermarket shaft of any kind that felt like an OEM one; they're all pretty low-quality.


Does that include remanufactured by OEM? I put a pair of Subaru remanufactured front axles on my friend's Outback last year and they are doing great - very smooth and no vibrations.

 

[Trav]

OEM reman is a whole different story. I have a friend that works for AC Delco, the difference between a $250 Delco pro steering rack and a $550 OEM reman rack by Delco is night and day.
The OEM reman uses a new magnet unit in the magnasteer units as well as new inner rods and new rack if anything is scored not just polished, the tubes are all sleeved with SS making them actually better than when they were new, harder wear surface, higher corrosion resistant and a higher new parts content are the major differences.
They also use the OEM coatings on parts for corrosion resistance on cast iron parts that are commonly overlooked on aftermarket parts.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: wing0
I looked up a video that shows how to replace the outer boot in the CV axle. Isn't it similar to this?

Actually, yes. I was wrong.

I just did some checking through my documentation. It looks like it's the older shafts where Honda tells you to do everything from the inner-joint side. Later Civics -- like yours -- are done inner and outer separately, like in that video.

Two points:
1) The Honda shop manuals do not recommend using a hammer to remove or replace the outer joint on its set ring. Other techniques are specified in order to minimize the chance of damage to the joint.
2) The guy in the video is pretty sloppy with the grease. That boot will likely be an oily mess at its larger end for the rest of its service life.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Does that include remanufactured by OEM?

OEM remans (purchased ONLY through your brand's official dealers) are the best there is. I would use them without hesitation.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: supton
...
The half-shaft has two boots on it, for the two joints. Your car has two half-shafts, thus 4 boots and four CV's. He's saying to leave the inner boot (and CV) alone. The outer boot sees all the "abuse" of turning, while the inner boot (and CV) sees much less flexing. The outer sees the full turn-to-turn steering, while the inner only see some flexing from when you go over big bumps. As a result, the inners usually are fine to leave alone.

...


Yes that is what I was getting at, sorry for the lack of detail.

I'm not sure how it is in Canada, but here in the US the major parts chains will "rent" you everything (tool wise) you need to do this job except the standard hand tools and jack/stands.

It would take me longer to clean the joint out than the rest of the job, but I have done this sort of a thing for a living. Still if you're reasonably mechanically skilled I cannot see this job taking more than a few hours.

I'd lay 95% odds there isn't a thing in the world wrong with that actual joint, I'd throw a Honda boot on it and call it a day.

 

[wing0]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: wing0
I looked up a video that shows how to replace the outer boot in the CV axle. Isn't it similar to this?

Actually, yes. I was wrong.

I just did some checking through my documentation. It looks like it's the older shafts where Honda tells you to do everything from the inner-joint side. Later Civics -- like yours -- are done inner and outer separately, like in that video.

Two points:
1) The Honda shop manuals do not recommend using a hammer to remove or replace the outer joint on its set ring. Other techniques are specified in order to minimize the chance of damage to the joint.
2) The guy in the video is pretty sloppy with the grease. That boot will likely be an oily mess at its larger end for the rest of its service life.


I just grabbed the used OE axle, both boots look to be in good condition. It's worth a bet I guess.
1) If there's a tool that can help me and I can rent it somewhere in Canada, I would use the tool to help remove the joint. Originally I was thinking of using a piece of wood in middle to minimize metal to metal contact.
2) Shouldn't all the grease be put in the joint and nothing in the boot area?

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: artbuc
Does that include remanufactured by OEM?

OEM remans (purchased ONLY through your brand's official dealers) are the best there is. I would use them without hesitation.


I asked Honda dealership if they can get OE remans, and they said no.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: supton
...
The half-shaft has two boots on it, for the two joints. Your car has two half-shafts, thus 4 boots and four CV's. He's saying to leave the inner boot (and CV) alone. The outer boot sees all the "abuse" of turning, while the inner boot (and CV) sees much less flexing. The outer sees the full turn-to-turn steering, while the inner only see some flexing from when you go over big bumps. As a result, the inners usually are fine to leave alone.

...


Yes that is what I was getting at, sorry for the lack of detail.

I'm not sure how it is in Canada, but here in the US the major parts chains will "rent" you everything (tool wise) you need to do this job except the standard hand tools and jack/stands.

It would take me longer to clean the joint out than the rest of the job, but I have done this sort of a thing for a living. Still if you're reasonably mechanically skilled I cannot see this job taking more than a few hours.

I'd lay 95% odds there isn't a thing in the world wrong with that actual joint, I'd throw a Honda boot on it and call it a day.


The boot kit from Honda is $70 CAD. Is it that more worthwhile vs the $25 from Beck/Arnley?

 

[Trav]

With Beck/Arnley there is a chance its an OE boot with the Honda logo removed with a dremel if its a poly boot, for that much of a price difference I would take a chance on it.
Outer joints of that size take around 80-200g of grease, pack as much of it as you can in the joint and throw the rest in the boot. Most boot kits come with 120g grease packets which is enough in this application (spec for these IIRC is 100g check the FSM).
Use a brass punch or dead blow hammer never a steel hammer, Wood works okay also but less desirable as it can splinter.

 

[wing0]

Originally Posted By: Trav
With Beck/Arnley there is a chance its an OE boot with the Honda logo removed with a dremel if its a poly boot, for that much of a price difference I would take a chance on it.
Outer joints of that size take around 80-200g of grease, pack as much of it as you can in the joint and throw the rest in the boot. Most boot kits come with 120g grease packets which is enough in this application (spec for these IIRC is 100g check the FSM).
Use a brass punch or dead blow hammer never a steel hammer, Wood works okay also but less desirable as it can splinter.


The beck/arnley is listed as neoprene on rockauto so it's not poly for sure.

Is a rubber mallet ok?
From the video, it just looks like a sudden impact at the right spot will push the joint out of the shaft.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: wing0
I just grabbed the used OE axle, both boots look to be in good condition. It's worth a bet I guess.

If the joint move perfectly smoothly, and there is ZERO looseness or play or stickiness , then it's fine. The joint should always return to the "straight-ahead" position as soon as you let go of the nose. The boot's springiness should be enough to return the joint to the straight-ahead position.

Any roughness, graveliness, stickiness, scraping, and that joint is not good. Most of the aftermarket shafts I've encountered (reman or new Chinese) are not very good quality. Even from NAPA.

Originally Posted By: wing0
1) If there's a tool that can help me and I can rent it somewhere in Canada, I would use the tool to help remove the joint. Originally I was thinking of using a piece of wood in middle to minimize metal to metal contact.

The Honda manual specifies a standard slide-hammer, but I can't see any reason a brass rod couldn't be used, provided it bears on the inner race only. You would use a steel hammer on the end of the rod. Wood is not a great choice, since it is too soft and will splinter and make a mess. Any metal-supply place can sell you a foot-long length of 3/4" or 1" brass or copper rod. Copper is a bit too soft, but it will do. you might need to finish the end of the rod so it bears only on the inner race.

Honda does NOT specify a tool for re-installation of the joint. Instead they advise using the weight of the shaft itself, judiciously applied.

Originally Posted By: wing0
2) Shouldn't all the grease be put in the joint and nothing in the boot area?

Yes. If you get grease in the groove where the boot sits on the shaft, that spot will seep forever. The seeped oil will attract dust and look messy and unprofessional. Be neat and careful with the grease and keep boot grooves squeaky-clean; this will ensure a dry and professional-looking boot area..

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: wing0
The boot kit from Honda is $70 CAD. Is it that more worthwhile vs the $25 from Beck/Arnley?

How long do you plan on keeping the car? Provided the aftermarket boots fit properly, even the worst boots will last at least a couple of winters if they're installed correctly.

The problem with aftermarket is that it's a mixed-bag: Sometimes quality is acceptable, sometimes it's very poor indeed. You're never quite sure of what you're buying until you get it. OEM for the Japanese makes is almost universally the best there is, but you do pay for that and the peace-of-mind that comes with it.

If economics are an issue, then you can rely on any easy-return policy that the aftermarket vendor has, and take your chances.

 

[chrome]

Rebooting a CV joint isn't hard, just messy. Lots of good advice from Tegger and Trav, keep it as clean as you can. Make sure you have the clamps ON the axle, then the boot, and finally the joint, assuming your clamps are Oetiker style. Be careful to seat the boot correctly onto the CV joint housing before you tighten the clamp with the tool.

Also make sure you have a sturdy vise attached to a sturdy work bench. You will need to clamp the axle down securely while you drift the joint off, it may require some firm whacks with a hammer.

 

[wing0]

Oh... Stupid me. *facepalm*
While I was concentrating in checking the boot and movement condition. I didn't see that this doesn't have the abs ring.

He said it came it out of the same model which has abs.
Gotta go back and he has another over with abs ring and in similar or better condition.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: wing0
2) Shouldn't all the grease be put in the joint and nothing in the boot area?

Yes. If you get grease in the groove where the boot sits on the shaft, that spot will seep forever. The seeped oil will attract dust and look messy and unprofessional. Be neat and careful with the grease and keep boot grooves squeaky-clean; this will ensure a dry and professional-looking boot area.

I'm going to clarify my statement above:

The new grease should be entirely in the BOOT and not in the GROOVE.
It is important to keep grease out of the GROOVE and off the flange on the BOOT.

You secure the inner band, then push the boot back in order to squeeze the grease into the boot as deeply as you can, making sure to get the nozzle of the tube past the boot flange before squeezing the grease into the boot. You do not need to distribute the grease in the boot; one or two big blobs are OK.

The CV joint will already be full of grease (but you will have wiped off the external excess with a lint-free rag).
The new grease will migrate very quickly into the joint and will mix thoroughly with the old grease.

And, as chrome says, if the new clamps are the closed type (already formed into a circle), put them on the shaft FIRST!!!! It's the same idea as putting the nut onto the brake line before making your flare.

 

[NormanBuntz]

Originally Posted By: NormanBuntz
From searching myself for my Honda, I see Rock Auto carries remanufactured axles by Cardone. Avoid them at all cost. They are pure junk.

From the amount of crud built up just above the boot, you have lost a fair amount of grease. Also with the size of the tear, plenty of water and dirt have had the opportunity to get inside the joint.

For the sake of quality, maybe a Duralast axle or one from Napa would be the way to go if you install a new one and don't want to use a Honda dealer to buy the parts.


Others here have given the OK to Cardone axles, so let me modify my post above. I never had a bad experience with a Cardone axle, only some of their other remanufactured parts for older vehicles. If indeed Honda uses them for its remanufactured axle program, the quality must be reasonably good.

The other day I was at a local Honda dealer and found out Honda does not sell the OE reman axle for my Ridgeline. For the right side inner the only dealer option was a new one at $267.

 

[wing0]

I don't have the axle anymore.
He doesn't have one with abs ring.

I have to search for one again.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: wing0
I don't have the axle anymore.
He doesn't have one with abs ring.

I have to search for one again.

There's always Napa