1972 motor and modern oil?

The manufacturer in 1972 specified SAE10 in “winter” and SAE 30 in “summer”,
I would run SAE 30w in the summer and a 10W-30 in the winter. Anything under 50 degrees F needs a 10W oil.

Remember this is an AIR cooled engine guys. Same as a lawn mower for example.

Far as using an old oil, forget it. You can't find one anyway. If you do it will be sky high in price. Keep it simple.
 
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This is the only picture I have of the truck
 
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If your seals are not changed with modern materials, i would recommend against modern synthetic oils. Motul has oil that use older base oils with modern additive packs, sold under names like "60s, 70s" etc.
 
As far as my parking, (a) truck is almost exactly as tall as wide, and (b) landed on some soft bushes and did not put a dent in it. As far as scratches, no way to tell.
 
In order to meet the Group III performance requirements it has to be hydrocracked, which involves the breaking of molecular bonds and recombination. It is synthesis, not just refining and purification.
According to Machinery Lubrication, Group II are hydrocracked, while Group III are “refined even more than Group II base oils and generally are severely hydrocracked”. Both Machinery Lubrication and I are using the word refining to refer to the amount of hydrocracking performed.

Ref:
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups
 
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I have a 1972 Steyr Puch Pinzgauer and am wondering if I should be using old fashion or modern oil in it. It has a 4 cylinder 2.5 liter air-cooled engine producing about 95 HP. It has aluminum pistons in cast iron cylinders, flat tappets, and gear driven cam. The crankcase is vented but not ventilated. I have an oil temperature gauge and the oil tends to stay around 200F. There are no valve seals

The lack of true ventilation in the crankcase results in some water condensation. This is noticeable as “white gunk” in the oil fill pipe but is never noticeable in the oil itself.

I recently had the engine apart and it looks clean with no oil related issues other than hardening of the 50 year old seals on the pushrod tubes.

The manufacturer in 1972 specified SAE10 in “winter” and SAE 30 in “summer”, both meeting MIL-L-2104B. Oil pan holds about 7 quarts. Specified oil change interval is 3,000 miles/100 hours.

Oil chat among owners has several themes. One is that changes to oil additive package to be catalytic converter friendly (reduction of ZDDP) makes newer oils inappropriate. Another is that synthetic oils cause more problems with oil fouling of plugs than mineral oils. A fair number of owners use an SAE 30 HDEO rated for compression but not spark engines.

.best regards,

Jimmy C
My concern would be is the SAE10 or SAE 30 used in it a detergent oil or non detergent oil?

If it's been using a non detergent oil all along, then I'd continue using a non detergent oil, which will probably be a monograde oil. If it's already been using a detergent oil, then I'd use a modern multigrade 5w30 or 10w30 diesel oil.

If it's been using detergent oil, then I'd get a good 5w30 modern synthetic diesel oil for it, such as Shell Rotella 5w30 or Mobil Delvac 5w30. What a good modern synthetic diesel oil lacks in ZDDP, it more than compensates for with better base oil and moly.

There was a period of time (for 10-15 years from late 90s to around 2010) when the reduction in ZDDP (for modern emission systems) caused serious problems for flat tappet engines.

However, we're well past that problem era now. It's no longer a problem because oil manufacturers learned to make better synthetic base oils and use moly to compensate for the reduction in ZDDP. The end result is that modern oils are better than oils used to be. Modern oils are better than they were in the 70s, 80s, early 90s, and much better than they were from late 90s to around 2010.

So no worries using a modern 5w30 or 10w30 diesel oil (if your engine is already using detergent oil). My preferred modern diesel oils for your type situation are Shell Rotella 5w30 or Mobil Delvac 5w30. If you can't find those in 5w30, then 10w30 would be fine.

I'm sure Phillips 66 also makes a good 5w30 or 10w30 modern diesel oil for your needs, but I don't know the name of the product because P66 oil isn't available in my local area.

Chevron Delo I don't like as much because it didn't do as well in wear tests I've seen as Rotella and Delvac did, but many people like Delo. I'm sure Delo is adequate, but I think the others I mentioned are better.

The guys in your Pinzgauer club are worried about a problem that existed for 10-15 years, but was solved by oil manufacturers 15 years ago and is no longer a concern with modern oils, IMO.
 
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According to Machinery Lubrication, Group II are hydrocracked, while Group III are “refined even more than Group II base oils and generally are severely hydrocracked”. Both Machinery Lubrication and I are using the word refining to refer to the amount of hydrocracking performed.

Ref:
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups
True you can hydrocrack any feed and get what you want, Group I-III designations are based on performance not method of manufacture.
 
My concern would be is the SAE10 or SAE 30 used in it a detergent oil or non detergent oil?

If it's been using a non detergent oil all along, then I'd continue using a non detergent oil, which will probably be a monograde oil. If it's already been using a detergent oil, then I'd use a modern multigrade 5w30 or 10w30 diesel oil.

If it's been using detergent oil, then I'd get a good 5w30 modern synthetic diesel oil for it, such as Shell Rotella 5w30 or Mobil Delvac 5w30. What a good modern synthetic diesel oil lacks in ZDDP, it more than compensates for with better base oil and moly.

There was a period of time (for 10-15 years from late 90s to around 2010) when the reduction in ZDDP (for modern emission systems) caused serious problems for flat tappet engines.

However, we're well past that problem era now. It's no longer a problem because oil manufacturers learned to make better synthetic base oils and use moly to compensate for the reduction in ZDDP. The end result is that modern oils are better than oils used to be. Modern oils are better than they were in the 70s, 80s, early 90s, and much better than they were from late 90s to around 2010.

So no worries using a modern 5w30 or 10w30 diesel oil (if your engine is already using detergent oil). My preferred modern diesel oils for your type situation are Shell Rotella 5w30 or Mobil Delvac 5w30. If you can't find those in 5w30, then 10w30 would be fine.

I'm sure Phillips 66 also makes a good 5w30 or 10w30 modern diesel oil for your needs, but I don't know the name of the product because P66 oil isn't available in my local area.

Chevron Delo I don't like as much because it didn't do as well in wear tests I've seen as Rotella and Delvac did, but many people like Delo. I'm sure Delo is adequate, but I think the others I mentioned are better.

The guys in your Pinzgauer club are worried about a problem that existed for 10-15 years, but was solved by oil manufacturers 15 years ago and is no longer a concern with modern oils, IMO.
There's no reason to use an ND oil in an engine.

Also base stocks have nothing to do with being able to reduce ZDDP. Base stocks are related to oxidation resistance and deposit formation, not wear reduction.
 
There's no reason to use an ND oil in an engine.
There is if that's what it was running its entire previous life, or if it doesn't have an oil filter (some older engines don't have an oil filter).

However, I'm not saying that's the case here. I don't know if oil used prior to now was non-detergent or detergent oil. I also don't know if Pinzgauer have an oil filter.
Also base stocks have nothing to do with being able to reduce ZDDP. Base stocks are related to oxidation resistance and deposit formation, not wear reduction.
Perhaps, but my point stands. Newer oils have better base stock and usually some moly and other modern additives that allow them to do fine with less ZDDP.
 
There is if that's what it was running its entire previous life, or if it doesn't have an oil filter (some older engines don't have an oil filter).

However, I'm not saying that's the case here. I don't know if oil used prior to now was non-detergent or detergent oil. I also don't know if Pinzgauer have an oil filter.

Perhaps, but my point stands. Newer oils have better base stock and usually some moly and other modern additives that allow them to do fine with less ZDDP.
No, it’s not.

And no it’s not about the base stocks.
 
There was a period of time (for 10-15 years from late 90s to around 2010) when the reduction in ZDDP (for modern emission systems) caused serious problems for flat tappet engines.

However, we're well past that problem era now.

Not, we are not.
Old engines require conventional old formula high ZDDP oils and not modern synthetics.

Particularly for the OP vehicle, he needs Mobil 1 Classic Car 10W-30 or Valvoline VR1 10W-30 non-synthetic oils. They are high in ZDDP too.

Why do you think companies still produce those old-school oils and spend millions to supply them to customers, if the new synthetic oils cover the old specs too?

Also read what Castrol recommends for classic cars, not that is related to this thread though but it's about old and new oils:

"Thank you for contacting Castrol North America. [email protected]

Classic cars with flat tappet cam engines represent a special case regarding engine oil lubrication. These engines have valve train configurations that require elevated levels of ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) anti-wear for proper protection of the flat tappet camshaft and its lifters. Insufficient concentration of ZDDP will lead to premature wear and failure of the camshaft and lifters. Current ILSAC GF-5 and GF-6 fuel economy grade engine oils are designed for the extended life of the catalytic converters in modern passenger cars and have industry-mandated limitations on the amount of sulfur and phosphorus within the oil.

The following Castrol oils are blended with a high zinc and phosphorus content to help prevent premature aging, wear, and metal fatigue on engines with high-tension valve springs or performance modifications that create high contact pressure and extreme internal temperatures (i.e., push-rod, flat tappet engines and performance cam applications):

Castrol GTX Classic 20W-50 (Conventional Oil Formula)
Features/Benefits:
-High Zinc – Typical Level 1300 ppm
-Specially formulated to provide unsurpassed wear protection for classic/collector cars & racing applications
-Compatible with gasoline and alcohol-based fuels
-Available exclusively through AutoZone and Amazon

Castrol EDGE 5W-50 (Full Synthetic Oil Formula)
Features/Benefits:
-High Zinc – Typical Level 1300 ppm
-Excellent cold temperature properties
-High-temperature viscosity (SAE 50) that is suitable for use in many classic car applications

Please consult the vehicle OEM or your mechanic/engine rebuilder as to the suitability of the 20W-50 and/or 5W-50 oil viscosity grade in your engine.

2. Castrol GTX Classic 20W-50 is designed to meet API SJ standards, and typically contains around 2900 ppm calcium. Castrol GTX Classic 20W-50 is formulated using exclusively Calcium-based detergents, as was typical for API SJ.

Typically, Castrol GTX Classic 20W-50 will last for a standard 6,000 mile oil drain however at a minimum, Castrol oils should be changed according to the oil and filter change intervals specified in the owner’s manual or as indicated by the oil life monitor for the type of service (normal or severe) that the vehicle is being operated under.

3. Detergent levels overall have decreased over time across the industry API SJ to the current API SQ. Typical SJ type oils contained between ~2800 ppm calcium, as do many existing products which emulate this standard. Modern engine oils contain far less detergent; typically around 1000 ppm calcium and 600 ppm magnesium.

Castrol always recommends following the guidelines of the engine manufacturer for the recommended oil (i.e., SAE grade, API rating, and manufacturer specifications) specific to your application. This information can always be found in the owner’s manual or by contacting the manufacturer directly. Before using any lubricant, ensure that the lubricant product specifications meet or exceed the lubricant specifications required by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for that specific use.

Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we value your patronage!

Castrol Customer Relations"
 
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Why do you think companies still produce those old-school oils and spend millions to supply them to customers, if the new synthetic oils cover the old specs too?
Probably because many people believe they need the old oils, which means there's a market for it, which means providing it is a money making opportunity for oil companies. Modern oils have less ZDDP, but many of them have more moly.

I owned 3 Jeeps with 4L flat tappet engines. One went from 92K to 410K miles using Supertech conventional oil, which is an el cheapo modern oil, but is apparently good enough. The cam never wore out. It was the rings that finally wore out.

My other 2 Jeeps have highend high mileage oil in them. Specifically Valvoline Extended Protection High Mileage Full Synthetic and they're still going strong. Though I no longer own them.

My dad had a Chrysler Imperial with 440 engine (flat tappet). He never had any issues.

Back in the period of time after ZDDP was reduced, but before oil manufacturers learned to make good oils without lots of ZDDP, during those years I did look for oils with high ZDDP as you advocate. That was good advice back then, but I don't think it's relevant anymore. In current times, give me lots of ZDDP or lots of moly and a good base oil, and I'll be happy either way (including in flat tappet engines).

In modern times I don't worry about ZDDP amounts if it's got lots of moly and good base oil I've never had a problem with a cam in a flat tappet engine.

His Pinzgauer engine is low power, low rpm. It's signifigantly less powerful and lower rpm than Jeep 4L, Chrysler 440, or any modern turbo diesel. It's main challenge is having an oil that's resistant to water and soot. So give some thought to which type of oil that is. A diesel oil.

I think it's unlikely the OP would have a problem using a high quality modern diesel oil (such as Rotella or Delvac). However, if he wants to look for some type of high ZDDP oil that's marketed to classic car owners, that's fine too, if it's diesel compatible.

If he can find a classic diesel oil that's new (not been in storage for decades) then get that. I'm not sure it exists.

So then which is better... A modern diesel oil, or a classic car oil made for gas engines? Maybe neither are fine, but think probably both are fine. If it was me, I'd use Rotella 10w30 in the Pinzgauer.

If anyone can recommend where he can get a classic diesel oil, then use that. Otherwise I recommend Rotella or Delvac 10w30.
 
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One should remember as well that molybdenum compounds are not a direct replacement for ZDDP, nor is any other additive for that matter. It's not a one-for-one "this oil has less ZDDP but more moly" type of relationship - especially when you don't know the particular molybdenum compound but are only making this determination based on a spectrographic analysis.

And again, base oil composition has little to do with it here. Better bases have improved oxidation resistance and resistance to deposits or sludge formation, but that doesn't mean it applies to wear protection.
 
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