15% ethanol in fuels in 2010???

[Russell]

As many of you know the US EPA is considering mandating(?) 15% ethanol in fuels, perhaps in late 2010.

Politics aside, what would be the impact of 15% ethanol on our older vehicles?

EPA is testing only a very small number of newer vehicles and is initially saying that 2001 and newer vehicles NOT should experience any issues. What about older vehicles. Another way to get older vehicles off the road??
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[heypete]

[citation needed]

 

[d00df00d]

I don't think it's a conspiracy to kill older vehicles. If they wanted to do that, I'm sure they would find a much more efficient and less underhanded method. I just think it's stupid and possibly reckless.

For one thing, "should not experience any issues" is a meaningless statement. How do you define "issue"? I don't know about anyone else but I don't want the government deciding what is or isn't a problem for my car's reliability. I want the car companies or myself to decide that.

Also, note the use of the word "should." If they were properly confident, they would say newer vehicles WILL not experience any issues. "Should" leaves them an out in case they screw up their estimates.

 

[JHZR2]

I have to wonder if this is indeed a way to get older vehicles off the road (I am assuming that a citation can be provided - I think Ive heard of this before).

If combustion and engine mapping allows proper utilization, it still may kill rubber and plastic parts inside, effectively destroying engines anyway.

I really wish they just went with 100% (or 95% or 90% even), and then E85, and left alone. People buying on apparent price would buy the E85, getting us to the biofuels point needed, and folks who couldnt or didnt want to use it (e.g. they actually log MPG and see a difference that is better than the price delta) could use real gas. Meanwhile, those using real gas would be emitting lower tonnage of pollution due to increased efficiency.

Unfortunately we trade ppm traces of pollutants for tons of CO2...

 

[Black_Thunder]

sounds like the worst idea i've heard since 10 percent ethanol.

 

[addyguy]

I don't think it's going to make much of a difference. I've read almost all vehicles can use up to 20% Ethanol before it becomes an issue.

 

[OilNerd]

I don't see how this is going to work. If older vehicles nead E10, I can't see station owners wasting pumps and tanks selling both E10 and E15.

Get ready to adjust the carbs on your small engines...

 

[JHZR2]

Or start water washing your gasoline...

 

[severach]

You mean carburetors that are non adjustable tuned for E0 to keep you from violating emissions and E15 is your government mandate to increase your emissions even more?

Maybe I should just throw away everything I have and buy new.

 

[oilboy123]

I pity people who will use it in boats. I'm not thrilled that fuel efficiency will be further reduced.

 

[Russell]

Originally Posted By: heypete
[citation needed]


Here is one link. If you need others-search. Try the EPA maze.

http://www.glgroup.com/News/E15-In-The-Cards-For-2010--But-Not-For-All-Cars-45163.html

 

[Jason2007]

Why do you think the EPA estimated gas mileage for vehicles was lowered the other year? It is a scam to make you think that the new gas is getting you the same mileage. It is all a scam to make people rich and give more control to the GOV.

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: oilboy123
I pity people who will use it in boats. I'm not thrilled that fuel efficiency will be further reduced.

Oh gawd, my antique 150hp outboard gets 2mpg on a good day with 100% gas.

We used to be able to get that in the summer until last year. 2 cycle oil doesn't mix well with oil apparently either, possibly another tactic by the EPA? You all know how they hate 2 strokes...they would explode if they saw my outboard. You can find me by following the smoke trail and the oil sheen!

I'm trying to find a place to buy 100% gas by the drum for "offroad use only". Fuel suppliers are telling me this is illegal, however, they still sell race gas to anyone without alcohol in it.

I'm seriously considering converting my vehicles to propane, which the EPA can't mess with. At least not yet.

 

[AcuraTech]

The gov of MN was considering this briefly. It's all politics. Why? The US grows so much corn that the huge agro-industrial conglomerates don't know what to do with it all.

-Feed it to cattle, chickens, and turkeys even though it makes them sick so they need a steady diet of hormones and antibiotics. Check.

-Turn it into a sweetener and put it into 50 percent of the foods you find on the shelf of a supermarket, even though it has been proven as highly unhealthy to humans and may be a factor in obesity and typeII diabetes. Check.

-Figure out a way to literally burn it in cars engines. Check.

-Hand out massive governmental subsidies to corn farmers because there is so much corn in the US that the farmer LOSES money without subsidies. Check.

-Destroy good farming land because corn sucks all the nutrients out of the soil and requires massive excessive amounts of petroleum based fertilizers that run off into our water causing excessive algae growth and choking our lakes and rivers. Check.

-Waste good land growing a crop that ISN'T EVEN EDIBLE WITHOUT MASSIVE PROCESSING. Check.

Corn is an effin' sham. I'm really surprised that there isn't much more of a public backlash against it.

 

[severach]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Or start water washing your gasoline...

I tried that with no efficiency change though I have a 5 gallon pail of burnable water. A small amount of the ethanol+water stays in solution and there is a patented chemical added to increase the amount of ethanol+water that can stay in gasoline solution.

Then again I bought E0 from a marina at $1 more per gallon with no efficiency change so I might be at my max efficiency already.

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: severach
Then again I bought E0 from a marina at $1 more per gallon with no efficiency change so I might be at my max efficiency already.

If you notice no change in efficiency between E10 and E0 then you aren't measuring right. A gallon of E0 has about 114,000 BTU. A gallon of E10 only has about 111,000. Doesn't matter what you're burning it in, pure gasoline will burn for longer.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey

If you notice no change in efficiency between E10 and E0 then you aren't measuring right. A gallon of E0 has about 114,000 BTU. A gallon of E10 only has about 111,000. Doesn't matter what you're burning it in, pure gasoline will burn for longer.


This is a BTU difference of 2.7%

For a vehicle that gets 25 mpg on E0, this means you could expect that same vehicle to get 24.4 mpg on E10 (assuming all other conditions are exactly the same). Expecting someone to notice (or even measure correctly) this small of a difference under real world conditions would be almost impossible.

 

[benjamming]

But the difference can be different than just what the BTU values would suggest.

 

[demarpaint]

Well for those who believe in Conspiracy Theories, maybe Uncle Sam wants these old cars off the road and Ethanol Gas is a way of sending them to the junk yard. Cash for clunkers, now more Ethanol in gas? Something to think about.

 

[severach]

E10 is available locally and the most accurate method I've found is to fill with 4 gallons then run the tank until the fuel level is below the float and can't move the needle on slow corners. 120 miles for 30 MPG 1994 Grand Am 2.3L SOHC 3 speed auto 50/50 city/highway repeats very accurately. Unfortunately 2%-4% is the distance between where the tank needle stops moving and where I notice it to pull another 4 gallon tank from the back seat.

E10 washed to ~E0.5+water may have improved MPG a tiny bit but it didn't make up for the discarded fuel and the stinky work to get it. The separation step of the E10 wash is a challenge that currently selling gas cans won't be able to perform. The only way I have to get rid of all that ethanol+water is to burn it.

E0 is not available locally so I picked up five 5 gallon containers. I blew the lines and drained the tank to remove all E10. After two expensive 5 gallons tanks with the same MPG I left the other 3 sit for another time. Small engines don't run like [censored] with pure gasoline.

My very clean and well tuned engines lose little from E0 to E10. Before they get clean 10% loss is normal. I still vote against E10 because though I can minimize its losses, other than the lucky few, the general public won't so on the whole we use more petroleum fuel with E10 than we would if it was all E0. At best we're paying ethanol producers to do nothing. I shouldn't need to run my add pack all the time and maintain better than new engine condition so E10 for me can almost match what E0 does for everyone.

For E15 I expect 15% snake oil to produce an average 15% loss and boost peak losses beyond 30% but the EPA won't see this in testing because they will be supplied engines like mine where the loss is tiny. I can't wait to see what E96 does.