I know that you advocate a homebrew of 132 combined with LC, but I seem to recall that someone (you?) also suggested a ratio for a mixture of 132 and 131. I've searched the forums and haven't come up with it, so either I'm dreaming, or I'm lousy at conducting searches! Regardless, what would you suggest as a good ratio of 132 to 131 for adding to a 4-quart system?
132 and 131 "home brew" question (for MolaKule)
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No expert here but I think I recall someone saying not to mix the 131 and 132, two different purposes. Why not ask Schaeffers about this as they are both their products. 131 is really a cleaner if placed in the crankcase whereas 132 is a EP additive with moly.
MolaKule
Staff member
I seem to recall that we suggested not using LC and Neutra 131 together, and not mixing LC with Auto-RX together, as well.
The optimum ratio seems to be 3:1, which is 150 mL of #132 to 50 mL of LC, or 6 pints of #132 to 2 pints of LC for a gallon mix (which I use).
Add the resulting mix at a rate of 125 to 250 mL per 4-5 quarts of oil, depending on the starting viscosity of the oil. For Mobil 1 10W30 SS, I use 250 mL, for Amsoil 10W30 ATM, I use 125 mL.
No need to use this brew with Redline products.
The optimum ratio seems to be 3:1, which is 150 mL of #132 to 50 mL of LC, or 6 pints of #132 to 2 pints of LC for a gallon mix (which I use).
Add the resulting mix at a rate of 125 to 250 mL per 4-5 quarts of oil, depending on the starting viscosity of the oil. For Mobil 1 10W30 SS, I use 250 mL, for Amsoil 10W30 ATM, I use 125 mL.
No need to use this brew with Redline products.
What is the benefit of this mix of 132 and LC in our oil or better said, what are we trying to accomplish? And why not add it to the Redline? I have been learning alot in these forums and seem to have a brain fart at the moment from so much information. Thanks.
Pedro
[ May 29, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: pruizgarcia ]
Pedro
[ May 29, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: pruizgarcia ]
MolaKule
Staff member
The original brew was to accomplish a number of things:
1. Increase viscosity of light 5W30 and 10W30 oils.
2. Use the synergistic effects of 132 and LC to control oxidation and further clean enngines, and stabilize both TBN and viscosity.
3. To supplement additives not found in run-of-the-mill oils like dinos and OTC synthetics, such as Antimony DTC, and increase the moly content of oils which had no or low Moly contents. Use these same DTC's in 132 to decrease friction (as FM's).
4. Use the synthetic surfactant in 132 to bring the organometallic additives to parts for a surface film deposition.
5. Use the surfactant in 132 to help the oil "climb" onto parts when cold, to reduce cold weather start-up problems.
6. Use the surfactant to control rust and oxidation of engines that are nonoperational for long periods.
Redline has plenty of Moly, Boron, and other AW additives, so the "Brew" is not needed. In addition, the heavy duty esters in Redline act as Friction Reducers (FM's), so one need not add friction modifiers to Redline. The stability of the synthetic base oils in Redline further obviate the need for any surfactants or oxidation inhibition supplements.
[ May 29, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
1. Increase viscosity of light 5W30 and 10W30 oils.
2. Use the synergistic effects of 132 and LC to control oxidation and further clean enngines, and stabilize both TBN and viscosity.
3. To supplement additives not found in run-of-the-mill oils like dinos and OTC synthetics, such as Antimony DTC, and increase the moly content of oils which had no or low Moly contents. Use these same DTC's in 132 to decrease friction (as FM's).
4. Use the synthetic surfactant in 132 to bring the organometallic additives to parts for a surface film deposition.
5. Use the surfactant in 132 to help the oil "climb" onto parts when cold, to reduce cold weather start-up problems.
6. Use the surfactant to control rust and oxidation of engines that are nonoperational for long periods.
Redline has plenty of Moly, Boron, and other AW additives, so the "Brew" is not needed. In addition, the heavy duty esters in Redline act as Friction Reducers (FM's), so one need not add friction modifiers to Redline. The stability of the synthetic base oils in Redline further obviate the need for any surfactants or oxidation inhibition supplements.
[ May 29, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Can I ask how the dosage of 125 Amsoil vs 250 for Mobil came about. Is this a starting point based upon something or purely a guestimate to use to start off?
Can I ask how the dosage of 125 Amsoil vs 250 for Mobil came about. Is this a starting point based upon something or purely a guestimate to use to start off? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Amsoil 30 weights are formulated to a higher viscosity than M1, so 250mL might push the Amsoil into the 40wt range.
Ok, got some sleep and I am awake now; so here my questions:
If Redline 10w30 doesn't need the brew, wouldn't it be easier just to use that or does the "brew" make the other oils that much better?
Does anyone have a VOA of this "brew" with M1 SS 10w30 and Amsoil 10W30? Would like to see how it compares with the existing VOA's of these oils.
Thanks.
Pedro
If Redline 10w30 doesn't need the brew, wouldn't it be easier just to use that or does the "brew" make the other oils that much better?
Does anyone have a VOA of this "brew" with M1 SS 10w30 and Amsoil 10W30? Would like to see how it compares with the existing VOA's of these oils.
Thanks.
Pedro
Redline is about $8/quart plus shipping in most cases. So, using the brew and adding to Mobil 1 ($4-$5/quart) and Amsoil $4.55-$7/quart plus shipping) it should be less expensive then 4-5 quarts of Redline although Amsoil may be a toss up.
As to a UOA, I will have one in a few months on the Amsoil.
pruizgarcia, it's almost always better to simply use a professionally blended oil.
However, there are times when some have oil on hand and feel the need to tailor it towards their specific application.
And there are people who prefer more barrier anti-wear in just about any oil. Red Line is very good stuff but it can be difficult for some to source without becoming ridiculously expensive.
One of the best UOA I have ever seen was Havoline synthetic with #132.
--- Bror Jace
However, there are times when some have oil on hand and feel the need to tailor it towards their specific application.
And there are people who prefer more barrier anti-wear in just about any oil. Red Line is very good stuff but it can be difficult for some to source without becoming ridiculously expensive.
One of the best UOA I have ever seen was Havoline synthetic with #132.
--- Bror Jace
Thanks for the information. Will be getting some 132 and LC today to compliment my M1 SS 10W30 in my 99 Nissan Maxima SE. Again, thanks.
Pedro
[ May 30, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: pruizgarcia ]
Pedro
[ May 30, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: pruizgarcia ]
Excellent question! By adding this mix, are just getting our Mobil and Amsoil "up-to-snuff" with Redline or are we able to surpass the Redline?
If I only add "LC" to my Amsoil, which of the above 6 things mentioned by Molakule would I be getting? If I only add "132", which of the above 6...
Actually, the original question was about a home brew using 132 and Neutra (131) - with the Neutra taking the place of the LC. I ask this only because (1) I have a ton of Neutra, and no LC in my garage, and (2) I thought that Neutra and LC both accomplished the same general thing when used in the crankcase. Given that, I thought one could make a home brew of 132 and Neutra, but perhaps at a slightly different ratio than one would use with 132 and LC.
MolaKule
Staff member
The suggested rates were done through actual engine testing and lab analysis using VOA's and UOA's as guidelines throughoutt development. Dyson Analysis did the VOA's and UOA's as I was developing this as an outgrowth of the testing we did for Lube Control. Since additives are often blended for synergistic effects in fully formulated oils, and since both LC and Schaeffer's #132 each had advantages, I decided to develop an optimum ratio of the two for use as a low-cost supplement to boost oils.
The suggested treatment rate for Amsoil was 125 mL, half of the suggested rate for Mobil 1.
Neutra and LC are two different animals. Since I have not done extensive testing with the 132/Neutra mix, I can neither recommend nor deny the efficacy of such a potential brew.
[ May 30, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Search in the UOA section. I posted UOA with Mobil 1 10W30 SS with the LC/132 mix. Almost perfect result, IMHO. Less than 1 ppm/1 k wear of iron and aluminum.
Courtesy of Dyson Analysis
Oil Brand/Weight : M1SS10w-30 with 250ml Schaeffer's #132/[LC].
Type Equipment : Nissan Frontier Miles/Hours on oil : 2307
Total Miles/Hours : 46037
My Comments in [...]
Results ppm/% Comments (blank=normal)
Wear
Copper 0
Iron 2
Chromium 0
Lead 0
Aluminum 1
Silicon 2
Tin 0
Additives
Molybdenum 68 [Low since M1 has 80 ppm and #132 is supposed to have > 150 ppm.]
Sodium 9
Magnesium 18
Zinc 737
Potassium 3
Phosphorus 676
Calcium 2260
Physical Properties
Water negative
Fuel negative
Antifreeze negative
Soot 0 None/Zilch
Oxidation 19 9.50%
Nitration 40 20%
Sulfur 8
TBN 8
Vis@100 C 11.5
[ May 30, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
kev99sl, did you ever try this combo? Anyone else tried it? Bob, perhaps? Search showed rugerman1 did try it without any issues but are there any UOA's? I might try brew since I do have both products as well.
Actually Pinyo, I would think that 131 will do what LC is, clean's but also it neutralizes acids so it would help keep oxidation down and less demand on the TBN of the oil itself. Conjoin that with the 132 and you'll find that it doesn't seem to have any negative affect on the base oil. I have tested this combination on my last analysis, which is not posted along with one other item which I am not mentioning at this time, ran for 800 miles as an experiement to see how well this would clean actual varnish color off the valve covers and rocker arms and to my amazement, it did exactly that. Having run 131 and 132 in my engine prior, and using neutra throught my 30k miles on this current car, I was amazed at the reddish heavy varnish color on the inside of my valve covers, but there was not one ounce of evidence of dirt,debre or sludge anywhere on or in the engine. Just the red tint from the 70k of castrol that was used on it prior to me getting the car. Anyway, needless to say, no problems with that mix.
bob
bob
Thanks, Bob, So what's the *unofficial* mixture ratio?
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