12-15% Ethanol?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
2,723
Location
Herndon, Virginia
So are cars going to handle the stuff? Motorcycles? The proponents don't care, obviously, they just want to recoup their investment in the corn-cookers. I suspect my 2008 Hyundai is built for it (some of the articles say most new cars can run on E-85 without harm even if they aren't officially Flex-Fuel vehicles?). I'm not for this as the production is from foodstuffs, corn and whatnot. Besides, what's a cleaner fuel than low-sulphur, unleaded gasoline, burned in modern cars? Nothing. Hydrogen, maybe. But the process to produce THAT is dirty. I just don't see what's so wonderful about Ethanol when it robs the corn supply.

Just a taste of the article:

Ethanol Producers Press for Higher Limits

By Steven Mufson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, March 6, 2009; D01

The nation's ethanol producers are urging the Obama administration to raise the 10 percent limit on ethanol in motor fuel to 15 percent or more, a move they hope will create new demand at a time when many distilleries are idle.

The producers say higher ethanol blends would help create jobs and reduce petroleum imports. Moreover, without a change in the 10 percent limit, ethanol makers say it could be difficult to fulfill a congressional mandate for renewable fuel use and the makers of new forms of ethanol, which rely on raw materials other than corn, could be locked out of the fuel market.
Growth Energy plans to formally request a waiver today from the Environmental Protection Agency to raise the ethanol content of motor fuel to 15 percent.

Under the existing 10 percent limit, ethanol production would theoretically top out at 14 billion gallons a year based on current fuel consumption trends, or less because of transportation constraints that limit ethanol deliveries in many parts of the country. That falls far short of the targets in current law, which requires refiners to use 36 billion gallons a year of ethanol by 2022, up from the current 10.5 billion gallon production level. President Obama said during the presidential campaign that he favors a 60 billion-gallon-a-year target.

But many critics say the push for higher ethanol limits is really about propping up the heavily subsidized ethanol industry and giving a boost to venture capital firms that are still struggling to come up with an economically competitive way to produce other forms of ethanol made from plants that do not compete with food products.
 
The real problem is the run-off from all the fertilizer chemicals making their way downstream to the Gulf of Mexico. It will destroy the aquatic life in the Gulf.
 
Oh. And here, all along, they said the real problem was people couldn't afford corn for food anymore. NOW you tell me!
crackmeup2.gif
 
The law of unintended consequences dictates that raising the ethanol limit limit even 5% should cause a myriad of problems both with the food supply of corn and with the driveability of most vehicles on the road today.

The food supply problem was evident last year with meat production farmers complaining about the high cost of feed for their animals. The driveablity problem hasn't surfaced yet since most computer-controlled vehicles were programmed to use up to 10% ethanol content since the late 80's. However, if you up the percent of ethanol without re-programming the computer's fuel maps, you get increasing lean mixtures as the ethanol content rises. (Ethanol doesn't have the same caloric output of gasoline. Therefore more fuel is required to maintain the same level of power.) Another side effect is fuel mileage goes down as the ethanol content goes up. There is no free lunch (unless you're part of a government sponsored program!
LOL.gif
).
 
Originally Posted By: toocrazy2yoo
The producers say higher ethanol blends would help create jobs and reduce petroleum imports. Moreover, without a change in the 10 percent limit, ethanol makers say it could be difficult to fulfill a congressional mandate for renewable fuel use and the makers of new forms of ethanol, which rely on raw materials other than corn, could be locked out of the fuel market.

This is like the sound nails on a chalkboard in my head.

There are tons of problems with ethanol as fuel, at every single step from legislation production to utilization and beyond -- except one: the pocketbooks of the ethanol lobby. Think about that.
 
Ethanol is stupid, sadly "we the people" have little to no power to stop it.

This will certainly pass due to the perceived "greenness" and also the American jobs it creates and/or sustains. It's good for America, you should support it or be ashamed.
02.gif


There is an ethanol plant ~100 miles away from me here in Idaho that just "temporarily" shut down because they said it wasn't profitable to produce ethanol right now. Even with the government subsidies I guess?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: paul246
The real problem is the run-off from all the fertilizer chemicals making their way downstream to the Gulf of Mexico. It will destroy the aquatic life in the Gulf.


Agreed, corn is one of the worst crops to grow in terms of its environmental impact. There are also all the streams that feed into the mississippi, they get wrecked first...
We have brook trout in our stream and but there are more acres of corn being planted upstream so we'll see how much fertillizer run off there is... It wouldn't take much to wreck it...
Ian
 
I would be foolish to run a higher ethanol concentration than the manufactures has tested for and approved for my vehicle. Anyone who tells me I can run 15 or 50% without issues does so without any data to back the statement up. You can try higher concentrations than recomended and it may run fine and seems OK and 20,000 miles later you spend $$$$ to get you fuel system components replaced. Just a dumb move in my opinion. Ed
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: toocrazy2yoo

Under the existing 10 percent limit, ethanol production would theoretically top out at 14 billion gallons a year based on current fuel consumption trends, or less because of transportation constraints that limit ethanol deliveries in many parts of the country. That falls far short of the targets in current law, which requires refiners to use 36 billion gallons a year of ethanol by 2022...


I guess I had assumed that the increase in ethanol usage would come from flex-fuel owners purchasing more E85. I'd be curious to find out how often people opt for E85 over gasoline, in those areas where E85 is widely available.

I, for one, prefer 0% ethanol in my fuel.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: toocrazy2yoo
The producers say higher ethanol blends would help create jobs and reduce petroleum imports. Moreover, without a change in the 10 percent limit, ethanol makers say it could be difficult to fulfill a congressional mandate for renewable fuel use and the makers of new forms of ethanol, which rely on raw materials other than corn, could be locked out of the fuel market.

This is like the sound nails on a chalkboard in my head.

There are tons of problems with ethanol as fuel, at every single step from legislation production to utilization and beyond -- except one: the pocketbooks of the ethanol lobby. Think about that.


Can you say ADM?
I thought you could.
repeat after me,
ADM is good, ADM is good, ADM is good, repeat.
 
My snowblower misfires about every five seconds on even a 10% blend. Misfires mean higher unburned hydrocarbon emissions. Green? yeah. Some days this winter it took as much gas to clear the driveway as it did to drive to work.
 
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I would be foolish to run a higher ethanol concentration than the manufactures has tested for and approved for my vehicle. Anyone who tells me I can run 15 or 50% without issues does so without any data to back the statement up. You can try higher concentrations than recomended and it may run fine and seems OK and 20,000 miles later you spend $$$$ to get you fuel system components replaced. Just a dumb move in my opinion. Ed


I have only listened to David Blume for about 6 hours on the radio. He seems to be very knowledgeable, but who knows? Other things like cat tails could be used to make alcohol. This interview gives more info if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vq7km9TWL0
 
Remember when "freon" was destroying the atmosphere was all the hype. Then it got banned. The ozone is still being depleted without it. Environmentalists are causing the country hundreds of billions in unnecessary, unhelpful, uneeded regulations. They just hype their claims and nobody from the gov. checks their figures. They just assume the green people are right and make more laws. Outlaw more products. This is not progress, it is antiproductive. The elf group here in San Diego, protested deforestation by burning down a huge housing project under construction. So they chopped down more trees to replace all the burned wood and rebuilt. Now, the polution that fire produced...well it is OK because it was their protest and they are green people. Don't get me wrong, the environment must be considered, but not the way it is done now.
 
Except for the fact that it's wrong...the destruction of ozone has stabilised.

It won't correct overnight.
 
Some very good points. I was not thinking of this from the environmental perspective, more as a way to save money. My parents live out in the country and routinely burn yard waste. They have some trees that have pods that ferment. They just burn them. Plus there is a lot of farms/farmers in the area so there may be other organic matter readily available. Many people commute 70 plus miles to work (I may be one of them some day). The aspect of having legal still to make your own fuel seems feasible. If gas prices go up it could save a lot of money for those long commutes.
 
Long post below. Sorry.


Orlando Sentinel - Saturday, March 7, 2009

Commentary by Steven Cole Smith, Sentinel Columnist

Virtually all the gasoline you can buy in Florida contains 10 percent alcohol, or E10, which stands for ethanol alcohol, 10 percent. So how's that working out for you?
When I wrote about it late last year, you said: Not so good.
Bob Xxxxxx of Winter Park said fuel milage in his Honda Insight dropped 10 percent. Richard Xxxxxxxx of Oviedo said his family's Honda Accord was averaging 21 to 23 mpg, and that dropped to 17 to 20 mpg.
Brevard County motorist Tommy Xsssss said he doesn't buy that E10 is a good deal for Florida consumers. "If it cuts my fuel milage by 10 percent, how are we ahead?"
There is a simple explanation for why vehicles get less milage on alcohol than gasoline: Alcohol contains less energy.
After that story ran, I got more than 100 calls and e-mails from people less than satisfied with Gov. Charlie Crist's 10 percent alcohol mandate. More than one had suspected their cars had some sort of mechanical problem that was cutting fuel milage and even took their cars in for a tune-up, but it didn't help.

Now comes word that you may soon get a chance to experience E15 or E20. The federal government is testing higher concentrations of alcohol in gasoline, with the possible result of allowing it to be sold.
Ten percent is the legal maximum, unless you drive a "flex-fuel" vehicle, capable of running on up to 85 percent alcohol, or E85, have a modified fuel system more resistant to corrosion, because higher ethanol blends tend to carry more water.
The federal government has declaired that almost any road-going vehicle built after 1980 should be able to operate on E10. Now it is seeing weather that limit can be pushed to E15 or E20.
The Midwestern states, notably Minnesota, are also pushing the idea, largely because that's where most of the corn is grown and most of the ethanol plants are. Some ethanol supporters, sensing opposition to E15 and E20, have dialed back and asked for E12.

Increases in ethanol percentages may have some support in the current administration.
Former Sen. Ken Salazar, who became interior secretary in January, signed a letter in October urging the energy secretary to make engine testing of ethanol blends higher than E10 a priority.
"Moving beyond 10 percent ethanol blends is essential to achieving this nation's goals of reducing our reliance on foreign oil and fostering the growth of a robust, domestic renewable fuels industry," the letter said.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is studying a proposal that would suggest E15 or E20 be used in newer vehicles, but not in older models or in equipment such as chain saws or lawn mowers, because of concerns about weather they could handle the increased alcohol.
Exactly how you would restrict sales to "newer" vehicles, and how new "newer" is, could be a major stumbling block.
Manufacturers seem mixed on the idea. "General Motors' position is that durability testing on vehicles for operability and parts wear should be performed before the amount of ethanol blended into the nation's fuel supply is increased" said Alan Adler, GM's communications anager for biofuels.
Ford, though, may be pushing E20. The company has vocally supported it in overseas markets, and in countries such as Thailand and the Philippines, Ford sells models that are optimized to run E20.
Just last week, a publication called Kiplinger's Biofuels Market Alert said that it had obtained exclusive confirmation that Ford is backing higher levels of alcohol in fuel in the U.S.
Even more interisting, Peter Rohde, editor of the Kiplinger's publication, told me that research is suggesting many motorists already are running higher concentrations of alcohol, and don't even know it. He says that in many jurisdictions, oversight is so lax, that distributors are adding more alcohol than the 10 percent allowed, just to displace more gas.
How much more? "We are hearing as much as 20 to 25 percent in some cases," Rohde says.
Dr. Matthew Curran, chief of the Bureau of Petroleum Inspection in Tallahassee, says that isn't happening in Florida. The bureau took more than 55,000 petroleum samples last year and tested them for alcohol content, and he says "less than one half of 1 percent" came back with more than 10 percent alcohol.
If distributors or station operators are caught adding more alcohol than the 10 percent federal and state limit, they are subject to fines of up to $5,000.
So it seems likely we are getting no more than 10 percent alcohol in our gasoling. For now.
In the future? We'll see.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom