110 charging in the real world

With all due respect, that's panning people, broadly, as imbeciles. You are a smart guy, I do not accept the fact that you don't understand this. Jane and Joe Average generally understand the concept of gallons and litres as a measure of volume, and, can generally infer from how many gallons they put in their vehicle, how many miles they should be able to go.

You understand gallons as a unit of measure, correct? kWh, in the context of a battery, is basically the same concept.

Like my Jeep has an 88L tank, a BMW with a 94kWh battery is conceptually the same for the sake of this discussion. I can get roughly 500km of highway-biased driving out of 3/4 of a tank, the BMW can get x number of km out of 3/4 of a full 94kWh charge.

My Jeep tells me how many km I have for range, and I know that's going to have a fudge factor based on how I drive
The BMW tells you how many km you have for range, and you know there's going to be a fudge factor based on how you drive

Both of these are representative; are inferred from the available volume of stored energy available, as to how much range is available.

Like my Jeep gets 10mpg driving in town and 15 driving mixed-highway, the BMW will go a certain # of miles per kWh in town and a different figure on the highway.

Like with gasoline and diesel vehicles, the efficiency varies wildly from one vehicle and powertrain combo to another. But, these fundamental units of measure don't change. Vehicle A will get a different # of miles per kWh than Vehicle B, just like different vehicles have different fuel economy figures.

So, when I put 20 litres into my Jeep and it gives me 1/2 a tank, I have a reasonably good idea how far I can go and the range available displayed will be generally pretty close to that.

When you put 20kWh into the BMW and it gives you 1/2 a charge, you'd have a reasonably good idea how far you can go and the range displayed will be generally pretty close to that.

When you "square peg round hole" a wholly unrelated unit of measure into this situation, it loses its universal correctness. Miles travelled per hour is an understood rate of travel, and doesn't meaningfully change whether you are in the Bahamas or the arctic, whether you are driving a Kenworth or a Yugo. But, when you cram it into this scenario, all of a sudden that's cast into the ether as now "miles per hour" is wholly redefined as a variable, with dependants, such as state of charge, battery pre-conditioning, brand and model of vehicle, powertrain...etc. It could represent a charge rate of 10kW on a Tesla and 12kW on a BMW or 2kW on a Nissan Leaf, and it's never the exact same because of all of those dependents. It's a fundamental misuse of a unit of measure that already has a definition.

The disconnect here seems to stem from the fact that EV's take a lot longer to charge/fuel than gasoline cars, so where folks don't really care how many gallons per second the fuel pump is, knowing how "fast" the charger is, is useful. But instead of encouraging people to understand the rather basic electrical terminology, like they already understand gallons or litres, somebody decided it would be easier to just butcher an existing and defined unit of measure and shoehorn it in there.

Ultimately, if Bob pulls up to a 20kW charger and his vehicle has a pretty flat charge curve, he can expect to get 10kWh of capacity in 30 minutes. Like buying fuel, the charger (pump) will show how many kWh (gallons/litres) he ended up purchasing and what he paid for those kWh (gallons/litres). If that bumps him up to 50% state of charge (half a tank) then he'll have a pretty good idea of how far he can go, and the vehicle is going to tell him anyway, just like gas cars do. There's no reason to butcher mph here when you understand the base units.

This is going to become doubly important as more and more people buy EV's and charge at home. Your hydro bill isn't in miles, you pay for kWh, the same unit your EV stores power in. If you drive 500 miles a month and your EV gets 3.2 miles per kWh, then you can figure you'll use at least 156kWh to charge your EV (you'll use more due to losses, this will become apparent).

As we move toward more electrification, broadly, understanding and using electrical units should be second nature. We already see horrible misuse of electrical units by the media, we need to be encouraging knowledge on the subject, not celebrating and embracing ignorance through ridiculous workarounds.
@OVERKILL you very well may be right. In fact, for many reasons, I hope you are. It makes important financial sense for charging at home because owners may get an unexpected bill. I just don't think you are based on my unscientific SWAG.

In all honesty, I don't think about this. I simply know gas is close to $5 gallon here and my monthly electricity bill is virtually zero.
When I needed to charge, 90 miles from home, I had no idea how much juice I needed. 10 minutes got me to 160 miles, or thereabouts and I was ready to fly home. But that's just me; others may operate differently.

Of course I respect and value the information you freely offer me; if I open my eyes for a few seconds I just may learn something. Ya never know...
 
The vast majority has no idea what gas mileage their car gets, the size of their tank, or the amount of gas it takes to get from A to B. They just fill up, fill up again when they get to a quarter tank, and go. They are utterly oblivious to any and all electrical terms. The only way EVs will work is by making them idiot proof and as easy as using a gas car, which most people barely manage. As things stand now EVs are for enthusiasts and beyond the ability of most people to afford, understand, and use. Those here on BITOG are not representative of the motoring public.
 
The vast majority has no idea what gas mileage their car gets, the size of their tank, or the amount of gas it takes to get from A to B. They just fill up, fill up again when they get to a quarter tank, and go. They are utterly oblivious to any and all electrical terms. The only way EVs will work is by making them idiot proof and as easy as using a gas car, which most people barely manage. As things stand now EVs are for enthusiasts and beyond the ability of most people to afford, understand, and use. Those here on BITOG are not representative of the motoring public.
True, we get deep in the weeds on this stuff and you're right, the problem we're fighting with actually having more EVs is that people have been conditioned into the stupid habits that come with an ICE vehicle. That doesn't happen overnight. People are terrified of change. They do what they do without any understanding of why they do it, they just know someone told them it work or it's the only way they know and it really hasn't failed them yet. There's really no problem with that, but getting people used to how charging works is a 50 year process at this point. The sad thing is before they get there, they'll tell you why it doesn't work based on false information and argue a point that has no basis in reality. There's nothing more futile in arguing with someone that staunchly believes false information and is convinced of it.
 
@OVERKILL the vast majority have no idea how to calculate remaining range or understand charging quantity. I don't. Good or bad, the MPH is something people understand.
I don't, because all of a sudden when my friend coming over asking me how many mph he can charge at my home I have no idea how to answer it, but I can tell him how many amps at what voltage I can.

I think everyone should take high school physics in the US.
 
I think everyone should take high school physics in the US.
The average person couldn't tell you what voltage and amperage is available in a standard outlet, let alone having a clue about watts and kilowatts. They do understand dollars and cents though. Note how people remember how much gas costs and the price of a fill up. I think marketers need to play on this and start touting how you can fill up an EV for only $X instead of the $40-50 you spend now.
 
Yes, and I know how far I can drive if I put 40 litres in my Jeep, it doesn't require me to abuse a unit of motion in order to know or convey that.

I used a gun metaphor since the majority of the membership is American and most of you seem to understand that subject when I make a comparison. I guess that's not the case for you, lol.
I'm just being a little silly. Technically, you are correct, MPH should be used for speed, not charging.

However, it's still a somewhat usable thing to say when talking to someone who doesn't have experience with an EV. At work, I'm literally the only person with any interest in EVs and except for a couple people that drove my degraded Leaf around the block for fun when I had that for a few weeks, I'm the only one who's actually spent any amount of time in an EV. I've got a lot of questions about the car from coworkers and I find it easier to say, "when I plug it in here I get about 4 miles of range per hour of charging" vs "when I plug it in on a regular 110V outlet and set it to 12A charging speed from the 8A default, it charges at about 1.3kw. Around town I usually get about 3 miles per kwh" which would just get a blank stare and an "ah" or "uh huh".

99% of people I talk to either hate EVs, feel indifferent about them, or just don't care about them. Trying to explain kwh and stuff is pointless. It's much more relatable to explain miles per hour of charging. Is it technically "wrong", yeah, but think about all the things in our daily lives that we take shortcuts on. I work at an auto parts store. Customers ask me all sorts of questions. The average person asking the difference between a 5w-30 and 10w-40 doesn't want the "real" answer, they're satisfied with "10w-40 is thicker than 5w-30, but did you want me to look up your car in the computer to see what it calls for?"
 
The average person couldn't tell you what voltage and amperage is available in a standard outlet, let alone having a clue about watts and kilowatts. They do understand dollars and cents though. Note how people remember how much gas costs and the price of a fill up. I think marketers need to play on this and start touting how you can fill up an EV for only $X instead of the $40-50 you spend now.

Thing is, charging cost, or "cost to fill up an EV" is so variable. It's not just charging at home vs public charging. Within home charging, many people don't have a fixed price per kwh, there are peak times. Maybe they have solar to help offset, maybe they don't? When it comes to public charging, there are Level 2 chargers and DC Fast Chargers. Some places are free. Some places charge per kwh. Some places charge per minute.

If someone couldn't charge at home or at work their cost to "fill up" their EV (let's say take it from 10% to 80% at a public DC fast charging station) is going to cost way more than if they can plug it in at their house overnight. While gas prices don't vary that much. Sure, station A might be $4.99/gallon while station B across the street might be $5.29/gallon, but that's much easier for most people to understand. Is a reasonably efficient EV (such as a Bolt or Model 3) cheaper to drive per mile in terms of fuel cost than a Toyota Corolla? Yeah, probably. But then you take a Hummer EV and that thing might not be much cheaper to operate than my 1997 GMC Yukon that gets 11MPG!
 
On a 15 Amp, my wife's work Mach e does about 8% in a 24 hour period. On 30 Amp it will do much more. How much? Well it will go from 30% to full in less than 24 hours.
 
If someone couldn't charge at home or at work their cost to "fill up" their EV (let's say take it from 10% to 80% at a public DC fast charging station) is going to cost way more than if they can plug it in at their house overnight.
That's another problem with EVs. There are many millions of urbanites and renters with no possibility of home charging for whom they could be great if they knew EVs could be recharged easily and economically. Instead, we learn you might have to spend thousand$ to install your own "gas station," or you have to pay through the nose if you can only use public chargers. It is just unrealistic for most people.
 
On a 15 Amp, my wife's work Mach e does about 8% in a 24 hour period. On 30 Amp it will do much more. How much? Well it will go from 30% to full in less than 24 hours.
Yeah, my e-tron was similar on 15A, it can only draw ~11A IIRC due to constant draw limits on a 15A circuit, so it would take days to charge. I had a 50A port put in my driveway (the car charges at 30-something like Jeff's Tesla) and yeah, full charge by morning.
 
That's another problem with EVs. There are many millions of urbanites and renters with no possibility of home charging for whom they could be great if they knew EVs could be recharged easily and economically. Instead, we learn you might have to spend thousand$ to install your own "gas station," or you have to pay through the nose if you can only use public chargers. It is just unrealistic for most people.
If I couldn't charge at home, I wouldn't own an EV. And having solar panels played an important role in the decision to buy. Having said that, apartments and condos are starting to incorporate charging capabilities around here. It will take years, of course, but it is starting. People are asking for chargers.
 
On a 15 Amp, my wife's work Mach e does about 8% in a 24 hour period. On 30 Amp it will do much more. How much? Well it will go from 30% to full in less than 24 hours.
8% on 110v in a Mach E? That doesn't sound right at all. The Model 3 will do 30amp charging in around 10 hours and about 30% in 24 hours on 110v. That's why we rarely run it low though. Get it to under 50% and we charge it. If it's above that we don't bother plugging it in unless we have a longer drive planned or just want more capacity on tap. The car is at 94% now after driving it yesterday and it was charged the night before. I would have to say the car more often than not when I drive it is at about 70%. My wife plugs it in about twice a week.

It's an LFP battery so we do charge it to 100% once a week and we're doing all of that on 110v. It gets about 500-600 miles a month.
 
No garage so would have to run a dedicated line from the panel about 25 feet through the basement to the wall next to the driveway. Assuming I have enough service to make that a dedicated Level 2 charge line do most of you hardwire in the charger or do you install a NEMA 14-50R weatherproof box and use a plug in charger? Does anyone from up north have experience using an EV all winter that must live in a driveway? Every winter there would be times when the car would sit outside in below zero weather for extended periods.
Look up “State of charge” on YouTube. He goes over all this and tests cold weather performance of the charging cables.
 
Yeah, my e-tron was similar on 15A, it can only draw ~11A IIRC due to constant draw limits on a 15A circuit, so it would take days to charge. I had a 50A port put in my driveway (the car charges at 30-something like Jeff's Tesla) and yeah, full charge by morning.

Seems like the most recent 120V EVSEs are actually 120V/240V chargers for worldwide use, and because some country where they are sold has a 10 amp limit on their outlets, they only allow a 10 amp charge rate on 120V.

I have one of these that came with a VW ID 3, 10 amps is all that it allows, but most vehicles allow charging at 12 amps @ 120V if the EVSE allows it.
 
Thing is, charging cost, or "cost to fill up an EV" is so variable. It's not just charging at home vs public charging. Within home charging, many people don't have a fixed price per kwh, there are peak times. Maybe they have solar to help offset, maybe they don't? When it comes to public charging, there are Level 2 chargers and DC Fast Chargers. Some places are free. Some places charge per kwh. Some places charge per minute.

If someone couldn't charge at home or at work their cost to "fill up" their EV (let's say take it from 10% to 80% at a public DC fast charging station) is going to cost way more than if they can plug it in at their house overnight. While gas prices don't vary that much. Sure, station A might be $4.99/gallon while station B across the street might be $5.29/gallon, but that's much easier for most people to understand. Is a reasonably efficient EV (such as a Bolt or Model 3) cheaper to drive per mile in terms of fuel cost than a Toyota Corolla? Yeah, probably. But then you take a Hummer EV and that thing might not be much cheaper to operate than my 1997 GMC Yukon that gets 11MPG!
Imagine people complaining to the electric company that their mph went down for the same price because the weather changes and it is the electric company's fault, yelling at the customer services.

Don't laugh, I had tenant accused me charging extra on rent, but the fact was they made more money and Section 8 paid less, so they had to made up the difference (it is part of their program). Do that to driving on EV using mph as a unit and see what happen.
 
To make it easy for people in the US to understand, I proposed we change the unit of energy stored inside the battery to calories (instead of Joules, or kwh), it is probably the easiest and most accurate way to understand it without adding vehicle efficiency and electric price into the mix.
 
To make it easy for people in the US to understand, I proposed we change the unit of energy stored inside the battery to calories (instead of Joules, or kwh), it is probably the easiest and most accurate way to understand it without adding vehicle efficiency and electric price into the mix.

The obesity problem in the nation is enough evidence that people don't understand calories any better than they do joules or kwh.
 
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