Originally Posted By: Darren_L
One of my Impala SS and my Chevelle.
Nice ride
One of my Impala SS and my Chevelle.
Nice ride
10W-30 Motor Oil. What's Your Flavor?
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Originally Posted By: shiny
Dumb question, but what's the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO vs a 10w-30 ILSAC GF-5?
No, it's a good question, and a significant difference. A 10w-30 HDEO, like Rotella, will have a higher HTHS of 3.5 or greater and elevated phosphorus levels. An ILSAC rated 10w-30 will have an HTHS of probably around 3.1, give or take, about the same as an ordinary SN/GF-5 5w-30, so, basically the same additive package and specification levels and high temperature performance, all at the same price, for poorer cold weather cranking.
That's why I get peeved when someone says, for instance, that QSGB 5w-30 is too thin and one should move to QSGB 10w-30, instead. It's such a minuscule change that it's almost pointless.
As SR5 points out, it's getting to the point where all ILSAC 30 grades have just about jumped the shark. I don't think there are any gasoline cars currently sold in North America that call for 10w-30, and 5w-30 is only in select models and certain makes. You get 5w-20 in some Mustangs and 5w-30 in others and 5w-50 in others yet. I'm not sure what Ford couldn't have achieved with the latter two by using an A3/B3 A3/B4 type lube, especially over a terribly shear prone 5w-50.
Dumb question, but what's the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO vs a 10w-30 ILSAC GF-5?
No, it's a good question, and a significant difference. A 10w-30 HDEO, like Rotella, will have a higher HTHS of 3.5 or greater and elevated phosphorus levels. An ILSAC rated 10w-30 will have an HTHS of probably around 3.1, give or take, about the same as an ordinary SN/GF-5 5w-30, so, basically the same additive package and specification levels and high temperature performance, all at the same price, for poorer cold weather cranking.
That's why I get peeved when someone says, for instance, that QSGB 5w-30 is too thin and one should move to QSGB 10w-30, instead. It's such a minuscule change that it's almost pointless.
As SR5 points out, it's getting to the point where all ILSAC 30 grades have just about jumped the shark. I don't think there are any gasoline cars currently sold in North America that call for 10w-30, and 5w-30 is only in select models and certain makes. You get 5w-20 in some Mustangs and 5w-30 in others and 5w-50 in others yet. I'm not sure what Ford couldn't have achieved with the latter two by using an A3/B3 A3/B4 type lube, especially over a terribly shear prone 5w-50.
Originally Posted By: Darren_L
Originally Posted By: gallydif
A picture of your 96 ss would be nice
One of my Impala SS and my Chevelle.
wowww nice!
Originally Posted By: gallydif
A picture of your 96 ss would be nice
One of my Impala SS and my Chevelle.
wowww nice!
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: shiny
Originally Posted By: Garak
That or an HDEO 10w-30, since I don't have a huge amount of use for an ILSAC 10w-30, when an ILSAC 5w-30 does much the same thing.
Dumb question, but what's the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO vs a 10w-30 ILSAC GF-5?
A "heavy duty" HDEO (or A3/B4) xW-30 will have a HTHS of about 3.5 to 3.6 and because it needs to pass a stay in grade shear stability test, it probably has better quality VIIs used, and probably a higher TBN (10 or more) too.
A ILSAC GF-5 xW-30 will have a HTHS of about 3.0 to 3.1, doesn't have to pass a shear stability test (unless its A5/B5 too) and usually has a TBN of about 8. It should give slightly improved fuel economy, so is "Resource conserving".
So Heavy Duty (HDEO) Vs Resource Conserving (ILSAC).
Timed out on an edit, the following paragraph got lost from above comment:
I don't really see the point of ILSAC xW-30 oils, to me they are neither fish nor fowl. If you want extra protection go for a high HTHS xW-30 as a HDEO or A3/B4. If you want RC go for a ILSAC xW-20.
Originally Posted By: shiny
Originally Posted By: Garak
That or an HDEO 10w-30, since I don't have a huge amount of use for an ILSAC 10w-30, when an ILSAC 5w-30 does much the same thing.
Dumb question, but what's the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO vs a 10w-30 ILSAC GF-5?
A "heavy duty" HDEO (or A3/B4) xW-30 will have a HTHS of about 3.5 to 3.6 and because it needs to pass a stay in grade shear stability test, it probably has better quality VIIs used, and probably a higher TBN (10 or more) too.
A ILSAC GF-5 xW-30 will have a HTHS of about 3.0 to 3.1, doesn't have to pass a shear stability test (unless its A5/B5 too) and usually has a TBN of about 8. It should give slightly improved fuel economy, so is "Resource conserving".
So Heavy Duty (HDEO) Vs Resource Conserving (ILSAC).
Timed out on an edit, the following paragraph got lost from above comment:
I don't really see the point of ILSAC xW-30 oils, to me they are neither fish nor fowl. If you want extra protection go for a high HTHS xW-30 as a HDEO or A3/B4. If you want RC go for a ILSAC xW-20.
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rotella T-5
QSGB 10w30
my 2 favorites in my sons Jeep
QSGB 10w30
my 2 favorites in my sons Jeep
Citgo Citgard 700 HDEO 10w-30 SS
Great stuff for all of my heavy equipment uses and trucks.
Great stuff for all of my heavy equipment uses and trucks.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Whatever is on sale. Been Super-S lately
Me too. Whatever name brand 10W30 on sale.
Whatever is on sale. Been Super-S lately
Me too. Whatever name brand 10W30 on sale.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: shiny
Dumb question, but what's the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO vs a 10w-30 ILSAC GF-5?
No, it's a good question, and a significant difference. A 10w-30 HDEO, like Rotella, will have a higher HTHS of 3.5 or greater and elevated phosphorus levels. An ILSAC rated 10w-30 will have an HTHS of probably around 3.1, give or take, about the same as an ordinary SN/GF-5 5w-30, so, basically the same additive package and specification levels and high temperature performance, all at the same price, for poorer cold weather cranking.
That's why I get peeved when someone says, for instance, that QSGB 5w-30 is too thin and one should move to QSGB 10w-30, instead. It's such a minuscule change that it's almost pointless.
As SR5 points out, it's getting to the point where all ILSAC 30 grades have just about jumped the shark. I don't think there are any gasoline cars currently sold in North America that call for 10w-30, and 5w-30 is only in select models and certain makes. You get 5w-20 in some Mustangs and 5w-30 in others and 5w-50 in others yet. I'm not sure what Ford couldn't have achieved with the latter two by using an A3/B3 A3/B4 type lube, especially over a terribly shear prone 5w-50.
Thank you, Garak and SR5.
I found this nifty page that looks at motor oil certification similarities and differences:
Lubrizol Relative Performance Comparison Tool
Some follow-up questions if I may (Should I start a new thread about this?):
I just compared Kendall's PDSs for their GT-1 full synthetic and GT-1 Euro full synthetic. The Euro doesn't come in 10w30 but comparing both at 5w30, the Euro GT-1 has lower TBN and the amount of phosphorus is the same. Is the Euro a HDEO? Do HDEOs say "HDEO" on the label?
Is there some kind of negative consequence to having more phosphorus that has led to requirements to reduce it?
Originally Posted By: shiny
Dumb question, but what's the difference between a 10w-30 HDEO vs a 10w-30 ILSAC GF-5?
No, it's a good question, and a significant difference. A 10w-30 HDEO, like Rotella, will have a higher HTHS of 3.5 or greater and elevated phosphorus levels. An ILSAC rated 10w-30 will have an HTHS of probably around 3.1, give or take, about the same as an ordinary SN/GF-5 5w-30, so, basically the same additive package and specification levels and high temperature performance, all at the same price, for poorer cold weather cranking.
That's why I get peeved when someone says, for instance, that QSGB 5w-30 is too thin and one should move to QSGB 10w-30, instead. It's such a minuscule change that it's almost pointless.
As SR5 points out, it's getting to the point where all ILSAC 30 grades have just about jumped the shark. I don't think there are any gasoline cars currently sold in North America that call for 10w-30, and 5w-30 is only in select models and certain makes. You get 5w-20 in some Mustangs and 5w-30 in others and 5w-50 in others yet. I'm not sure what Ford couldn't have achieved with the latter two by using an A3/B3 A3/B4 type lube, especially over a terribly shear prone 5w-50.
Thank you, Garak and SR5.
I found this nifty page that looks at motor oil certification similarities and differences:
Lubrizol Relative Performance Comparison Tool
Some follow-up questions if I may (Should I start a new thread about this?):
I just compared Kendall's PDSs for their GT-1 full synthetic and GT-1 Euro full synthetic. The Euro doesn't come in 10w30 but comparing both at 5w30, the Euro GT-1 has lower TBN and the amount of phosphorus is the same. Is the Euro a HDEO? Do HDEOs say "HDEO" on the label?
Is there some kind of negative consequence to having more phosphorus that has led to requirements to reduce it?
My 10-30 is PYB for sure and I am mostly a semi-synthetic or synthetic blend "and up" but a 5w-30 and down guy but this PYB 10-30(pilfered from my dad's garage that used on his two camrys one is late 80s) has got me straight on the need for moly as a FM. The Valvoline uses primarily sodium and little to no moly but I guess since it is the only oil that has GP IV, the Val syn power can "Get away with it"?! The "punch" it gets from the moly in the PYB and used for topping off up to 1 full quart is just immense and colossal!!
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M1, CE or PP
Originally Posted By: shiny
I just compared Kendall's PDSs for their GT-1 full synthetic and GT-1 Euro full synthetic. The Euro doesn't come in 10w30 but comparing both at 5w30, the Euro GT-1 has lower TBN and the amount of phosphorus is the same. Is the Euro a HDEO? Do HDEOs say "HDEO" on the label?
A Euro oil, particularly an A3/B3 A3/B4 oil, is "close" to an HDEO, but not exactly. There is some overlap for certain applications, and there are similarities. As I've outlined before, a 10w-30 A3/B3 A3/B4 or a 10w-30 A3/B3 A3/B4 is rare in North America. You're going to find them in a 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, or 5w-40 for the most part. The Kendall Euro oil sounds like an ACEA C3 oil, which will still be thicker than an ILSAC oil. It'll have viscosity like an A3/B3 A3/B4 oil, but lower TBN and lower ash. ACEA C3 oils are suitable for certain diesels, just like A3/B3 A3/B4 are suitable for different diesels, and E series oils are suitable for another class of diesels again.
An HDEO is what some call a "diesel oil" but isn't exactly that. It is a heavy duty engine oil. A heavy duty engine oil will usually have something like CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN as its specifications, and if there are ACEA sequences met, those will be E sequences. The Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 in my G37 is a CJ-4/SM E7, E9 HDEO. This type of diesel oil is normally seen in a big semi going down the highway, not a VW TDI or a newer Mercedes passenger diesel, or a Chevy Cruze diesel.
Originally Posted By: shiny
Is there some kind of negative consequence to having more phosphorus that has led to requirements to reduce it?
Catalytic converter protection was the nominal reason for this. That's why if a vehicle did call for an SM/GF-4 or newer 10w-30, for example, Rotella 10w-30 CJ-4/SM wouldn't be exactly what the OEM had in mind, with the Rotella being thicker within the grade and having a higher phosphorus concentration.
I just compared Kendall's PDSs for their GT-1 full synthetic and GT-1 Euro full synthetic. The Euro doesn't come in 10w30 but comparing both at 5w30, the Euro GT-1 has lower TBN and the amount of phosphorus is the same. Is the Euro a HDEO? Do HDEOs say "HDEO" on the label?
A Euro oil, particularly an A3/B3 A3/B4 oil, is "close" to an HDEO, but not exactly. There is some overlap for certain applications, and there are similarities. As I've outlined before, a 10w-30 A3/B3 A3/B4 or a 10w-30 A3/B3 A3/B4 is rare in North America. You're going to find them in a 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, or 5w-40 for the most part. The Kendall Euro oil sounds like an ACEA C3 oil, which will still be thicker than an ILSAC oil. It'll have viscosity like an A3/B3 A3/B4 oil, but lower TBN and lower ash. ACEA C3 oils are suitable for certain diesels, just like A3/B3 A3/B4 are suitable for different diesels, and E series oils are suitable for another class of diesels again.
An HDEO is what some call a "diesel oil" but isn't exactly that. It is a heavy duty engine oil. A heavy duty engine oil will usually have something like CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN as its specifications, and if there are ACEA sequences met, those will be E sequences. The Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 in my G37 is a CJ-4/SM E7, E9 HDEO. This type of diesel oil is normally seen in a big semi going down the highway, not a VW TDI or a newer Mercedes passenger diesel, or a Chevy Cruze diesel.
Originally Posted By: shiny
Is there some kind of negative consequence to having more phosphorus that has led to requirements to reduce it?
Catalytic converter protection was the nominal reason for this. That's why if a vehicle did call for an SM/GF-4 or newer 10w-30, for example, Rotella 10w-30 CJ-4/SM wouldn't be exactly what the OEM had in mind, with the Rotella being thicker within the grade and having a higher phosphorus concentration.
Originally Posted By: shiny
Do HDEOs say "HDEO" on the label?
Is there some kind of negative consequence to having more phosphorus that has led to requirements to reduce it?
HDEO is a mixed fleet (petrol & diesel) Heavy Duty Engine Oil, they are for people like mining or transport companies who want one oil to service all their needs, including petrol cars and diesel trucks. They should carry API approval for both petrol engines (Spark ignition - Sx) and diesel engines (Compression ignition - Cx). The Euro ACEA equivalent is Ax for petrol, Bx for light duty diesel (cars) and Ex for heavy duty diesels (Truck).
A typical HDEO are things like Shell Rotela / Rimula, Mobil Delvac, Chevron Delo. etc
Here is some PQIA HDEO test data
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/HDEO SUMMARYrev2.html
Over here I like Castrol RX Super, it's a 15W-40 mineral HDEO, that is API CI-4+ / SL and ACEA E7. The E7 & CI-4 means it's a HDEO, but the API SL says it's suitable for petrol engines. The most up to date specs are the low SAPS E9 and CJ. The 15W-40 are mineral oils, but you can also get synthetics and semi-synthetics. All HDEOs have more zinc anti-wear agents than typical car oils.
OK zinc is usually in the form of Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (often referred to as ZDDP) and is an anti-wear agent that protects the engine when the oil film breaks under high load. The compound also contains phosphorous, so the Zn and the P track together. Now Phos can poison the cat in your exhaust system, so there are P limits in ILSAC grade car oils, about 800 ppm. Heavy weight oils ( eg 0W-40, 15W-40, 20W-50, etc) have no P limit and therefore can have higher Zinc. HDDOs have no P/Zn limit, but the adds can be too high for cars engines, so make sure the HDEO you select is something like API SL or ACEA A3.
One of my favorite oils is Castrol Edge 5W-30 A3/B4. Because the Euro spec allows higher Zn & P it's a great high quality full synthetic A3 car oil. But 5W-30 is an ILSAC grade with P limits. The A3/B4 Edge meets all the requirement of SN oils, but the excess P ( and therefore Zn) forces it to be classed as SL oil. I see that as a badge of honour in this case, not an inferior oil, as it is top shelf stuff.
Do HDEOs say "HDEO" on the label?
Is there some kind of negative consequence to having more phosphorus that has led to requirements to reduce it?
HDEO is a mixed fleet (petrol & diesel) Heavy Duty Engine Oil, they are for people like mining or transport companies who want one oil to service all their needs, including petrol cars and diesel trucks. They should carry API approval for both petrol engines (Spark ignition - Sx) and diesel engines (Compression ignition - Cx). The Euro ACEA equivalent is Ax for petrol, Bx for light duty diesel (cars) and Ex for heavy duty diesels (Truck).
A typical HDEO are things like Shell Rotela / Rimula, Mobil Delvac, Chevron Delo. etc
Here is some PQIA HDEO test data
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/HDEO SUMMARYrev2.html
Over here I like Castrol RX Super, it's a 15W-40 mineral HDEO, that is API CI-4+ / SL and ACEA E7. The E7 & CI-4 means it's a HDEO, but the API SL says it's suitable for petrol engines. The most up to date specs are the low SAPS E9 and CJ. The 15W-40 are mineral oils, but you can also get synthetics and semi-synthetics. All HDEOs have more zinc anti-wear agents than typical car oils.
OK zinc is usually in the form of Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (often referred to as ZDDP) and is an anti-wear agent that protects the engine when the oil film breaks under high load. The compound also contains phosphorous, so the Zn and the P track together. Now Phos can poison the cat in your exhaust system, so there are P limits in ILSAC grade car oils, about 800 ppm. Heavy weight oils ( eg 0W-40, 15W-40, 20W-50, etc) have no P limit and therefore can have higher Zinc. HDDOs have no P/Zn limit, but the adds can be too high for cars engines, so make sure the HDEO you select is something like API SL or ACEA A3.
One of my favorite oils is Castrol Edge 5W-30 A3/B4. Because the Euro spec allows higher Zn & P it's a great high quality full synthetic A3 car oil. But 5W-30 is an ILSAC grade with P limits. The A3/B4 Edge meets all the requirement of SN oils, but the excess P ( and therefore Zn) forces it to be classed as SL oil. I see that as a badge of honour in this case, not an inferior oil, as it is top shelf stuff.
Again, SR5 and Garak, thanks for taking time to explain this complicated stuff so well. It's much appreciated!
Schaeffer 711 10w30 syn blend CJ-4 / SM for all my diesels (1.8L thru 12.7L) and a number of smaller gasser engines. Schaeffer 9003D 5w30 for my 2015 Chevy pickup.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
For 10w30
Rotella T5
PYB
Pennzoil HM
M1 HM
I have reversed my thinking as far as conventional oil goes but what gives PYB 10-30 its mojo? What makes it knock our socks off? I was using it to top off 1 quart so far in a 10k OCI consisting of Val 5w-30 full syn but am considering using PP 0w-20 of all things to really go all out in energy-conserving mode as well as get that protection in that moly as a FM that it is instilled with.
For 10w30
Rotella T5
PYB
Pennzoil HM
M1 HM
I have reversed my thinking as far as conventional oil goes but what gives PYB 10-30 its mojo? What makes it knock our socks off? I was using it to top off 1 quart so far in a 10k OCI consisting of Val 5w-30 full syn but am considering using PP 0w-20 of all things to really go all out in energy-conserving mode as well as get that protection in that moly as a FM that it is instilled with.
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Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
but what gives PYB 10-30 its mojo? What makes it knock our socks off?
Imo,I'd say its time tested proven old school add pack and high tbn.
but what gives PYB 10-30 its mojo? What makes it knock our socks off?
Imo,I'd say its time tested proven old school add pack and high tbn.
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