Dude: Use PP 5w20 and forget it. You will never have an issue with PP. Buy it a Walmart and if you have any worries about NOACK evaporation....just change it sooner. You'll never know the difference.
10W-30 a better choice then 5W-30
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I knew this would happen... Ok for the record...My Service Mgr {Who is a close friend for Many Years} pulled me aside at the time of detailing the Ram at the time of purchase and talked about switching to a 30Wt after the FF change... He recommended it! Ok! I as well as my brother-in-law who owns a 2013 Ram 5.7L have been running a 30Wt with Never One issue with the MDS! It functions Magically!!! Myth Busted! I have been and will continue to use a 30Wt... Also my MPG has not dropped with the 30Wt like many say it does...
My question was about a 10W-30 & 5W-30 not the MDS or a 20Wt...
Thanks to those who have put up replies towards the actual question...
My question was about a 10W-30 & 5W-30 not the MDS or a 20Wt...
Thanks to those who have put up replies towards the actual question...
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Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
Easy enough on oil but the mds system won't function properly with 10w30
That's bunk. It will function fine.
Easy enough on oil but the mds system won't function properly with 10w30
That's bunk. It will function fine.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I've heard about that wording, too, but we've never seen any evidence of that. You know how thick a 5w-20 is when cold, compared to a hot 5w-30, and how much short tripping goes on in this world?
I'm not in a position to make a technical judgement on their statement, just relaying the statement. To be fair, it does say "may cause", which means it "may not", too...
It's also gone in later manuals, so it isn't even relevant to this thread, really, as I believe he has a 2014.
robert
I've heard about that wording, too, but we've never seen any evidence of that. You know how thick a 5w-20 is when cold, compared to a hot 5w-30, and how much short tripping goes on in this world?
I'm not in a position to make a technical judgement on their statement, just relaying the statement. To be fair, it does say "may cause", which means it "may not", too...
It's also gone in later manuals, so it isn't even relevant to this thread, really, as I believe he has a 2014.
robert
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Exactly Buster-->Hence the reason for my question...Mostly about the 2 oils I posted a bit of info about... Granted I do realize one has to look deeper into it then just the info I posted...
If it was apples to apples I would just chose the 10W-30 and never would have posted my question which I very reluctantly chose to do...
Thanks for your reply!
If it was apples to apples I would just chose the 10W-30 and never would have posted my question which I very reluctantly chose to do...
Thanks for your reply!
It's not a garauntee that 10w30 will just automatically fail the mds system, but it increases the risk of it malfunctioning. Why else would the manufacture state this right in the owners manual? It's not like they gain any money by doing so, heck to be technical, they spent extra having to put in thousands of extra pages in the owners manual of thousands of these trucks to make the statement
I owned a Hemi ram for several years, I was simply giving a piece of advice to save you a potential headache down the road. But thank you for the rude response back. It sounds like your service manager also believes a MYTH to recommend you switch to a grade of oil not recommended by dodge just because of rumours that 5w20 might do more harm? Anyone here care to back that statement up too then? Didn't think so
There is a reason I don't post much in this forum in the several years I've been here. The attitude and hypocrites; 99% of people who ask about an oil type on a vehicle under warranty are told to follow the owners manual, they know best, i go to give the same advice and this is the response.
I'll bow out, take care and goodluck with your dodge
I owned a Hemi ram for several years, I was simply giving a piece of advice to save you a potential headache down the road. But thank you for the rude response back. It sounds like your service manager also believes a MYTH to recommend you switch to a grade of oil not recommended by dodge just because of rumours that 5w20 might do more harm? Anyone here care to back that statement up too then? Didn't think so
There is a reason I don't post much in this forum in the several years I've been here. The attitude and hypocrites; 99% of people who ask about an oil type on a vehicle under warranty are told to follow the owners manual, they know best, i go to give the same advice and this is the response.
I'll bow out, take care and goodluck with your dodge
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Originally Posted By: -SyN-
Switched to 5W-30 in the Hemi with my summer oil change... She has been Silky Smooth and Very Quiet... No issues! Nor did I expect any...
After doing some researching around and reading... 10W-30 just might be a better choice...
The Ram is a daily driver with mostly Interstate and Highway driving very little stop and go city driving and short trips are avoided as much as possible...
I live in Oklahoma so cold winters are not that bad but there are many days of 0*F weather... The Ram will be in the garage at night... Only at work will it be exposed to long periods of winter weather...
The 2 oils I am drawn back to are the 10W-30 Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra Platinum...
These are the Pure Plus Version... I did not post the Ultra Versions..
SAE Viscosity Grade : 5w-30
Density : 0.84 g/cm3
Flash Point : 224°C
Pour Point : -48°C
Viscosity @40°C : 56.9 cSt
Viscosity @100°C : 10.3 cSt
Viscosity Index : 170
CCS Viscosity @-30°C : 4,000 cP (-30)
MRV Viscosity @-35°C : 10,500 cP (-35)
Noack Volatility : 10.1%
Specifications : API SN, ILSAC GF-5, ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5,
Chrysler MS-6395, Ford WSS-M2C946-A, GM 6094M, GM
4718M, Honda/Acura HTO-06, dexos1
SAE Viscosity Grade : 10w-30
Density : 0.843 g/cm3
Flash Point : 224°C
Pour Point : -48°C
Viscosity @40°C : 63.3 cSt
Viscosity @100°C : 10.3 cSt
Viscosity Index : 150
CCS Viscosity @-30°C : 4,150 cP (-25)
MRV Viscosity @-35°C : 8,500 cP (-30)
Noack Volatility : 4.7%
Specifications : API SN, ILSAC GF-5, Chrysler MS-6395, GM
6094M, GM 4718M
My question is as stated above-->Is the 10W-30 the better choice then the 5W-30 for an owner who is using a 30Wt oil?
10W-30 and 5W-30 are the same viscosity at operating temperature.
With this being said, 5W-20 is recommended for that engine for all temps according to Chrysler.
Switched to 5W-30 in the Hemi with my summer oil change... She has been Silky Smooth and Very Quiet... No issues! Nor did I expect any...
After doing some researching around and reading... 10W-30 just might be a better choice...
The Ram is a daily driver with mostly Interstate and Highway driving very little stop and go city driving and short trips are avoided as much as possible...
I live in Oklahoma so cold winters are not that bad but there are many days of 0*F weather... The Ram will be in the garage at night... Only at work will it be exposed to long periods of winter weather...
The 2 oils I am drawn back to are the 10W-30 Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra Platinum...
These are the Pure Plus Version... I did not post the Ultra Versions..
SAE Viscosity Grade : 5w-30
Density : 0.84 g/cm3
Flash Point : 224°C
Pour Point : -48°C
Viscosity @40°C : 56.9 cSt
Viscosity @100°C : 10.3 cSt
Viscosity Index : 170
CCS Viscosity @-30°C : 4,000 cP (-30)
MRV Viscosity @-35°C : 10,500 cP (-35)
Noack Volatility : 10.1%
Specifications : API SN, ILSAC GF-5, ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5,
Chrysler MS-6395, Ford WSS-M2C946-A, GM 6094M, GM
4718M, Honda/Acura HTO-06, dexos1
SAE Viscosity Grade : 10w-30
Density : 0.843 g/cm3
Flash Point : 224°C
Pour Point : -48°C
Viscosity @40°C : 63.3 cSt
Viscosity @100°C : 10.3 cSt
Viscosity Index : 150
CCS Viscosity @-30°C : 4,150 cP (-25)
MRV Viscosity @-35°C : 8,500 cP (-30)
Noack Volatility : 4.7%
Specifications : API SN, ILSAC GF-5, Chrysler MS-6395, GM
6094M, GM 4718M
My question is as stated above-->Is the 10W-30 the better choice then the 5W-30 for an owner who is using a 30Wt oil?
10W-30 and 5W-30 are the same viscosity at operating temperature.
With this being said, 5W-20 is recommended for that engine for all temps according to Chrysler.
The 2014 manual states that 5W-30 is okay, "NOTE: MOPAR® SAE 5W-30 engine oil approved to Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395 may be used when SAE 5W-20 engine oil meeting MS-6395 is not available."
It even recommends it in some cases: "For 2500/3500 trucks with a 5.7L engine operating under a gross combined weight rating of 14,000 lbs (6 350 kg) or greater, SAE 5W-30 engine oil is recommended for all operating temperatures."
I don't know if there is any difference in the 5.7L in the 1500 and 2500/3500 trucks.
Sorry, I have nothing else to contribute than actually reading the manual, but it seems like some folks haven't done that basic step.
robert
It even recommends it in some cases: "For 2500/3500 trucks with a 5.7L engine operating under a gross combined weight rating of 14,000 lbs (6 350 kg) or greater, SAE 5W-30 engine oil is recommended for all operating temperatures."
I don't know if there is any difference in the 5.7L in the 1500 and 2500/3500 trucks.
Sorry, I have nothing else to contribute than actually reading the manual, but it seems like some folks haven't done that basic step.
robert
Robert: That is why my Service Mgr and I as well as Many Others within the Ram Forums are not concerned about pouring in a 30Wt...
I have read over my manual many times... There is NO issue and will not be with a 30Wt.
Thanks for your reply!
I have read over my manual many times... There is NO issue and will not be with a 30Wt.
Thanks for your reply!
I like the lower NOACK of the 10w30, but I think it's likely changed since the latest GTL formulation. NOACK has gone up among all the PP/PU oils since 2013. It's still not high and perfectly fine, but it's just not as low as it once was.
*I think I'm wrong, both the PU/PP 10w30 have exceptionally low NOACK numbers. 5.7 and 4.7. Nice. The 5w30 jumps up to 11.5% for the PU. Looks like as of 2014.
*I think I'm wrong, both the PU/PP 10w30 have exceptionally low NOACK numbers. 5.7 and 4.7. Nice. The 5w30 jumps up to 11.5% for the PU. Looks like as of 2014.
A GM engineer once said viscosity really doesn't matter much. I sort of believe it.
https://euroesi.mazda.co.jp/esicont/eu_eng/mazda3/20110724140058/html/id0111h3800400.html
Skyactiv engien can run anything from a 10w30 to 10w50.
I like the lower NOACK and less VII's of the 10w30's, despite being an "obsolete" grade. lol
Very tempted to try PU 10w30 in the Mazda 2.0.
https://euroesi.mazda.co.jp/esicont/eu_eng/mazda3/20110724140058/html/id0111h3800400.html
Skyactiv engien can run anything from a 10w30 to 10w50.
I like the lower NOACK and less VII's of the 10w30's, despite being an "obsolete" grade. lol
Very tempted to try PU 10w30 in the Mazda 2.0.
It depends on the engine and how it operated.
Honda recommends conventional 10W30 for S2000 in warmer climate above 0F and 5W40 for below 0F. One of the reasons is the engine is running fairly high RPM at highway speed about 4500 RPM at 85MPH, so the lower NOACK is essential for 7500 miles OCI.
Since we almost never have any temperature below 30-35F in So Cal, cold start with 10W30 is never a problem and with lower NOACK than 5W30 I almost always have 10W30 in my S2000 when I use conventional, lately I mixed Mobil 1(or Castrol Edge) 0W40 with 0W20 to get higher HTHS around 3.3-3.4 instead of 3.0-3.1 of 10W30.
Honda recommends conventional 10W30 for S2000 in warmer climate above 0F and 5W40 for below 0F. One of the reasons is the engine is running fairly high RPM at highway speed about 4500 RPM at 85MPH, so the lower NOACK is essential for 7500 miles OCI.
Since we almost never have any temperature below 30-35F in So Cal, cold start with 10W30 is never a problem and with lower NOACK than 5W30 I almost always have 10W30 in my S2000 when I use conventional, lately I mixed Mobil 1(or Castrol Edge) 0W40 with 0W20 to get higher HTHS around 3.3-3.4 instead of 3.0-3.1 of 10W30.
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Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
It's not a garauntee that 10w30 will just automatically fail the mds system, but it increases the risk of it malfunctioning. Why else would the manufacture state this right in the owners manual? It's not like they gain any money by doing so, heck to be technical, they spent extra having to put in thousands of extra pages in the owners manual of thousands of these trucks to make the statement
And the SAME MDS system works fine in the 0w-40 spec'd 6.4L. The system tracks oil temperature, pressure and a few other characteristics and will set a code if it perceives viscosity is too far out of spec for operation, that operation happens when the coolant/oil temperature has passed a predefined threshold.
The issue with a 10w-30 isn't that it is heavier at operating temperature than a 5w-30; it isn't. It is that it thickens more as the temperature drops. The system could easily have the window broadened to allow 20w-50 to work fine, just like it is broadened/has different parameters for the engines that spec 0w-40.
Is it possible to get a viscosity CEL running 10w-30 in an MDS equipped HEMI? certainly. However it is not going to hurt the system and the odds of it happening where it is warm is much less likely than somewhere cold in Canada where the cold temp characteristics of the oil come into play. User Clevy ran 0w-40 in his last year and I believe he managed to get the warning once or twice.
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
I owned a Hemi ram for several years, I was simply giving a piece of advice to save you a potential headache down the road. But thank you for the rude response back. It sounds like your service manager also believes a MYTH to recommend you switch to a grade of oil not recommended by dodge just because of rumours that 5w20 might do more harm? Anyone here care to back that statement up too then? Didn't think so
I'm not even sure what you are saying here other than you perceived my response as rude. Can you clarify?
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
There is a reason I don't post much in this forum in the several years I've been here. The attitude and hypocrites; 99% of people who ask about an oil type on a vehicle under warranty are told to follow the owners manual, they know best, i go to give the same advice and this is the response.
I'll bow out, take care and goodluck with your dodge
Do not equate my response to one indicating an alignment with a recommendation outside what is spec'd in the owners manual, that is not the case. My '06 Charger with MDS gets M1 0w-20, as it spec's a 20-weight and my SRT-8 gets a 0w-40, as that's what it calls for. My issue is with those who don't understand how viscosity plays in the system's operation and believe it will be damaged if a different grade is used. This is not the case, it cannot be due to the environments the engines are expected to operate in. Operation in Alaska will see viscosity several orders of magnitude higher than the same oil/engine combination in California for example. The effect of temperature on viscosity guarantees it. Subsequently the systems MUST be tolerant of a wide range of viscosities.
HOWEVER
The system can also expect a certain range of oil pressure at a given oil temperature or some other viscometric measuring technique that employs a temperature monitoring component. It then extrapolates viscosity to be within, or not within the range defined in its table. If it sees too high of a pressure or whatever metric it uses for viscosity at a given temperature it can then determine the grade is out of range and set a CEL/notification.
It's not a garauntee that 10w30 will just automatically fail the mds system, but it increases the risk of it malfunctioning. Why else would the manufacture state this right in the owners manual? It's not like they gain any money by doing so, heck to be technical, they spent extra having to put in thousands of extra pages in the owners manual of thousands of these trucks to make the statement
And the SAME MDS system works fine in the 0w-40 spec'd 6.4L. The system tracks oil temperature, pressure and a few other characteristics and will set a code if it perceives viscosity is too far out of spec for operation, that operation happens when the coolant/oil temperature has passed a predefined threshold.
The issue with a 10w-30 isn't that it is heavier at operating temperature than a 5w-30; it isn't. It is that it thickens more as the temperature drops. The system could easily have the window broadened to allow 20w-50 to work fine, just like it is broadened/has different parameters for the engines that spec 0w-40.
Is it possible to get a viscosity CEL running 10w-30 in an MDS equipped HEMI? certainly. However it is not going to hurt the system and the odds of it happening where it is warm is much less likely than somewhere cold in Canada where the cold temp characteristics of the oil come into play. User Clevy ran 0w-40 in his last year and I believe he managed to get the warning once or twice.
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
I owned a Hemi ram for several years, I was simply giving a piece of advice to save you a potential headache down the road. But thank you for the rude response back. It sounds like your service manager also believes a MYTH to recommend you switch to a grade of oil not recommended by dodge just because of rumours that 5w20 might do more harm? Anyone here care to back that statement up too then? Didn't think so
I'm not even sure what you are saying here other than you perceived my response as rude. Can you clarify?
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
There is a reason I don't post much in this forum in the several years I've been here. The attitude and hypocrites; 99% of people who ask about an oil type on a vehicle under warranty are told to follow the owners manual, they know best, i go to give the same advice and this is the response.
I'll bow out, take care and goodluck with your dodge
Do not equate my response to one indicating an alignment with a recommendation outside what is spec'd in the owners manual, that is not the case. My '06 Charger with MDS gets M1 0w-20, as it spec's a 20-weight and my SRT-8 gets a 0w-40, as that's what it calls for. My issue is with those who don't understand how viscosity plays in the system's operation and believe it will be damaged if a different grade is used. This is not the case, it cannot be due to the environments the engines are expected to operate in. Operation in Alaska will see viscosity several orders of magnitude higher than the same oil/engine combination in California for example. The effect of temperature on viscosity guarantees it. Subsequently the systems MUST be tolerant of a wide range of viscosities.
HOWEVER
The system can also expect a certain range of oil pressure at a given oil temperature or some other viscometric measuring technique that employs a temperature monitoring component. It then extrapolates viscosity to be within, or not within the range defined in its table. If it sees too high of a pressure or whatever metric it uses for viscosity at a given temperature it can then determine the grade is out of range and set a CEL/notification.
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
Wemay:
I know to some owners that # is the deciding number...
How important is the NOACK # to a daily driver?
Noack is one of those overvalued spec's. Sure, all things being equal we would always choose the oil with the lowest Noack but there is usually a trade off in doing so; namely, a lower VI. So as long as it is reasonable there is no advantage in choosing an oil with marginally lower volatility.
That said, the difference between PP/PUP 5W-30 and 10W-30 is not huge during warm weather use. The 10W-30 will of course be somewhat heavier on start-up at all temp's and could have a lower viscosity at extremely high temp's (in excess of 150C) due to the 10W-30s lower VI but that shouldn't be a concern in a 5W-20 application.
So aside from the fact that the 10W-30 grade is no longer specified you could use it but my choice would be the 5W-30 grade.
Wemay:
I know to some owners that # is the deciding number...
How important is the NOACK # to a daily driver?
Noack is one of those overvalued spec's. Sure, all things being equal we would always choose the oil with the lowest Noack but there is usually a trade off in doing so; namely, a lower VI. So as long as it is reasonable there is no advantage in choosing an oil with marginally lower volatility.
That said, the difference between PP/PUP 5W-30 and 10W-30 is not huge during warm weather use. The 10W-30 will of course be somewhat heavier on start-up at all temp's and could have a lower viscosity at extremely high temp's (in excess of 150C) due to the 10W-30s lower VI but that shouldn't be a concern in a 5W-20 application.
So aside from the fact that the 10W-30 grade is no longer specified you could use it but my choice would be the 5W-30 grade.
Buster: Your posts really sum up the reasons for me even thinking of PUP or PP 10W-30...
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wemay
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Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
To those folks who are saying, 'It's got a low Noack, so what?', I'd say this...
Yes, oil is more than just one parameter, but if I had to pick one parameter to judge an oil it would be Noack for a given viscosity grade. To understand why, you need to understand how base oil, DI & VII blend. Viscometric limits are generally fixed. Noack on the other hand 'floats'. Noack is high or low depending on the quality of the base oil used. The higher the Viscosity Index of the base oil used, the lower the Noack will be. However it doesn't stop there. The higher the VI of the base oils use means the higher the aggregate KV100 of the base oil mix (good for wear) and less VII polymer in the blend. The latter IMO is the crucial factor. In oil terms, you can view VII as 'the disease' and DI as 'the cure'. Typically formulators think in terms of 'more cure' but if you can reduce the severity of 'the disease', then the standard amount of DI you have in the oil does a better job of keeping the engine healthy.
Apologies for using far too much metaphor..
To those folks who are saying, 'It's got a low Noack, so what?', I'd say this...
Yes, oil is more than just one parameter, but if I had to pick one parameter to judge an oil it would be Noack for a given viscosity grade. To understand why, you need to understand how base oil, DI & VII blend. Viscometric limits are generally fixed. Noack on the other hand 'floats'. Noack is high or low depending on the quality of the base oil used. The higher the Viscosity Index of the base oil used, the lower the Noack will be. However it doesn't stop there. The higher the VI of the base oils use means the higher the aggregate KV100 of the base oil mix (good for wear) and less VII polymer in the blend. The latter IMO is the crucial factor. In oil terms, you can view VII as 'the disease' and DI as 'the cure'. Typically formulators think in terms of 'more cure' but if you can reduce the severity of 'the disease', then the standard amount of DI you have in the oil does a better job of keeping the engine healthy.
Apologies for using far too much metaphor..
Originally Posted By: robertcope
To be fair, it does say "may cause", which means it "may not", too...
Staying within spec is always the safe bet. However, manufacturers tend to use way too much hyperbole to protect their single low viscosity choices here in North America.
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
It's not a garauntee that 10w30 will just automatically fail the mds system, but it increases the risk of it malfunctioning. Why else would the manufacture state this right in the owners manual?
Yes, they do. It's called weasel wording. It's just another little pressure the use about this and that to stick to a single oil choice, and provide more warranty leverage. How much is the risk of malfunctioning increased?
The advice here wasn't to ignore the manual. The advice here was to question dubious claims. People wouldn't question their owner's manuals so often if a manufacturer didn't make a wild claim right within the pages, or perhaps if they even spent five minutes proofreading some of their own gibberish.
To be fair, it does say "may cause", which means it "may not", too...
Staying within spec is always the safe bet. However, manufacturers tend to use way too much hyperbole to protect their single low viscosity choices here in North America.
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
It's not a garauntee that 10w30 will just automatically fail the mds system, but it increases the risk of it malfunctioning. Why else would the manufacture state this right in the owners manual?
Yes, they do. It's called weasel wording. It's just another little pressure the use about this and that to stick to a single oil choice, and provide more warranty leverage. How much is the risk of malfunctioning increased?
The advice here wasn't to ignore the manual. The advice here was to question dubious claims. People wouldn't question their owner's manuals so often if a manufacturer didn't make a wild claim right within the pages, or perhaps if they even spent five minutes proofreading some of their own gibberish.
I feel special since my car's oil cap says 10W-30 right on it.
I don't have to feel guilty like you guys do.
I don't have to feel guilty like you guys do.
Originally Posted By: _MAXIMUS_
5w30 is already past what is recommended in your Hemi, if you're still in warranty I would be putting in the proper oil, which is 5w20
If you have any issues with mds, Chrysler can test that oil and figure out you aren't using the proper one and there goes your warranty
really, they are going to do MRV and CCS tests ?
if they do anything, it will be KV100, and KV40, and both the oils are so close, they could only say that both were 30s.
If they DID do the MRV and CCS, by the API standards, a used oil that tests as a 10W could have started as a 5W anyway...but they are NOT going to be testing MRV and CCS.
5w30 is already past what is recommended in your Hemi, if you're still in warranty I would be putting in the proper oil, which is 5w20
If you have any issues with mds, Chrysler can test that oil and figure out you aren't using the proper one and there goes your warranty
really, they are going to do MRV and CCS tests ?
if they do anything, it will be KV100, and KV40, and both the oils are so close, they could only say that both were 30s.
If they DID do the MRV and CCS, by the API standards, a used oil that tests as a 10W could have started as a 5W anyway...but they are NOT going to be testing MRV and CCS.
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