1/2 Ton trucks and cooling sytem performance

[skrypj]

From: The 2014 Ford F-150 Owners Manual
https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...&userMarket=USA&div=f&vFilteringEnabled=False

Right so my truck has a 17100 lb GCWR. Even if my truck and trailer were both at max GVWR(7700 lbs and 5500 lbs) I am only at a GCW of 13200 lbs. Even at 7000-8000' I am below the recommended GCWR.

The frontal area should be right at the limit I would think. My trailer sits very low and the front is sloped pretty aggressively though..

 

[PandaBear]

If the system is maxed out like this (radiator and intercooler upgrade) and it still hit 240F, it is not going to be a thermostat problem, likely it already completely open up and it is the responsibility of all the coolers to cool it down, not the thermostat to open and close the flow.

Do you have any hood upgrade that has a hood scoop? That may help somewhat.

 

[mattd]

Right so my truck has a 17100 lb GCWR. Even if my truck and trailer were both at max GVWR(7700 lbs and 5500 lbs) I am only at a GCW of 13200 lbs. Even at 7000-8000' I am below the recommended GCWR.

The frontal area should be right at the limit I would think. My trailer sits very low and the front is sloped pretty aggressively though..

not sure why the trucks rating is that high when it can’t even handle significantly less than that. While this may be a “common” issue, doesn’t mean something isnt wrong. Those temps are not normal. Diesels have turbos and don’t have this problem. My powerstroke doesn’t even know it grossing over 20K (37’ TT) going up mountains in NH and maine. Temps get maybe to 205-210, max oil temp I have seen is 217* with over 90* ambient. With your upgraded coolers you should NOT being seeing those temps, especially if it will go into derate unless you back out. Cooling fan shouldn’t be an issue going 60+ MPH, plenty of air flow in the front at that speed.

If it was my truck, I’d be hooking up a 0-30 psi gauge into one of the degas bottle lines, running it into the truck or do the windshield and see if pressure spikes/climbs during heavy throttle.

i feel like this thread screams unstudded 6.0L PSD.

 

[UncleDave]

Titan big tow 4x4 rated for 9500
Only went into guardian a handful of times in 15 years with 7500on the hitch - pretty solid.Towed 9K toy hauler pretty well.
I replaced radiator with CFS but couldnt fit the cowl back on and I think its a benefit. I need to spend some time with a dremel.



Ecoboost.
I never had a problem towing with the max tow (3:73) version of an ecoboost,
I did have a problem with a a non max tow (3:55) that could pull just fine but ran hot at the edge.
Does the max tow have a different cooling package with a bigger trans and radiator?

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Any way you can swap in a mechanical fan? I do not like electric fans for sustained high power operations. An electric fan cannot pull the CFMs that a mechanical fan infront of a screaming engine can.

Seen this a lot with Jeeps. People will switch their Jeep to electric fan because it runs warm when they're beating on it and instead of only running warm now it's overheating. They switch back to brand new OEM style fan clutch , shroud and it's working fine.

Also wouldn't the upgraded intercooler allow you to make more power and more heat?

 

[skrypj]

not sure why the trucks rating is that high when it can’t even handle significantly less than that. While this may be a “common” issue, doesn’t mean something isnt wrong. Those temps are not normal. Diesels have turbos and don’t have this problem. My powerstroke doesn’t even know it grossing over 20K (37’ TT) going up mountains in NH and maine. Temps get maybe to 205-210, max oil temp I have seen is 217* with over 90* ambient. With your upgraded coolers you should NOT being seeing those temps, especially if it will go into derate unless you back out. Cooling fan shouldn’t be an issue going 60+ MPH, plenty of air flow in the front at that speed.

If it was my truck, I’d be hooking up a 0-30 psi gauge into one of the degas bottle lines, running it into the truck or do the windshield and see if pressure spikes/climbs during heavy throttle.

i feel like this thread screams unstudded 6.0L PSD.

Maine and NH are a lot lower in elevation. My living room is above the summit of Mt Washington. Your cooling air is a lot denser than mine. For any given amount of CFM's that are flowing through my radiator, I am getting ~20% less air mass than someone at sea level. This means my air cannot absorb as much heat and heats up faster as it passes through the radiator reducing the number of BTU's pulled from the radiator.

So far I have not seen anyone near sea level complaining about the Ecoboosts overheating nor have I ever seen anything about head gasket failure except on truck that were tuned and running stupid HP. The 2nd gen 3.5 Ecoboosts are making like 700 rwhp on the stock long blocks without headgasket issues.

Titan big tow 4x4 rated for 9500
Only went into guardian a handful of times in 15 years with 7500on the hitch - pretty solid.Towed 9K toy hauler pretty well.
I replaced radiator with CFS but couldnt fit the cowl back on and I think its a benefit. I need to spend some time with a dremel.



Ecoboost.
I never had a problem towing with the max tow (3:73) version of an ecoboost,
I did have a problem with a a non max tow (3:55) that could pull just fine but ran hot at the edge.
Does the max tow have a different cooling package with a bigger trans and radiator?

The max tow trucks do have larger radiators. Well, not larger but thicker and with different fin densities and rows. That is kinda why I am curious about what the 5.0 trucks do. For the same year, they would have a smaller radiator than my truck would, but same width and height and same cooling fans.

The titan is a mechanical cooling fan?

 

[skrypj]

Any way you can swap in a mechanical fan? I do not like electric fans for sustained high power operations. An electric fan cannot pull the CFMs that a mechanical fan infront of a screaming engine can.

Seen this a lot with Jeeps. People will switch their Jeep to electric fan because it runs warm when they're beating on it and instead of only running warm now it's overheating. They switch back to brand new OEM style fan clutch , shroud and it's working fine.

Also wouldn't the upgraded intercooler allow you to make more power and more heat?

It would, and I have thought about that. But I only upgraded the intercooler a couple of years ago after I started towing. I could still overheat the truck prior to the upgrade and overheated it the first time out.

At the end of the day the engine could make the power to get up the hill with the stock intercooler or not. It just has more overhead with the upgraded unit since my IAT is like 115 on a 100F day instead of 190. The difference is the air entering the engine is cooler and I am likely running more advanced timing because of that, so it should equate to less fuel and less boost to do the same job, right?

 

[UncleDave]

Maine and NH are a lot lower in elevation. My living room is above the summit of Mt Washington. Your cooling air is a lot denser than mine. For any given amount of CFM's that are flowing through my radiator, I am getting ~20% less air mass than someone at sea level. This means my air cannot absorb as much heat and heats up faster as it passes through the radiator reducing the number of BTU's pulled from the radiator.

So far I have not seen anyone near sea level complaining about the Ecoboosts overheating nor have I ever seen anything about head gasket failure except on truck that were tuned and running stupid HP. The 2nd gen 3.5 Ecoboosts are making like 700 rwhp on the stock long blocks without headgasket issues.



The max tow trucks do have larger radiators. Well, not larger but thicker and with different fin densities and rows. That is kinda why I am curious about what the 5.0 trucks do. For the same year, they would have a smaller radiator than my truck would, but same width and height and same cooling fans.

The titan is a mechanical cooling fan?

Correct on Titan its an engine drive fan with a clutch- at least the 04 is.

 

[PandaBear]

Do they still make mechanical fan for something this new? Anyways for 70mph you shouldn't need much cooling fan at all, the airflow from the grill should be way more than what your mechanical fan can pull in.

 

[Chris142]

There is more to a radiator than core size. Tube count and find per inch are very important.

Electric

i think thats kinda the root of the issue. Because they designed the radiator to be rectangular to accommodate two fans side by side, they gave up a lot of radiator height. Basically the core is a 2:1 width to height.

on any trucks with mechanical fans they have a basically square radiator core and are much larger. Even my Lexus GX has a 25% larger core than my F150

View attachment 58450
The tundra has a 36% larger frontal area on its core

 

[skrypj]

There is more to a radiator than core size. Tube count and find per inch are very important.

Agree, but at some point you simply saturate the air flowing through the radiator, which i think is what is happening with the ecoboost.

A radiator with a larger frontal area can flow more air through it which means that air heats up less for the same BTUs shed.

A 24” x 24” x 1” radiator will shed far more heat than a 24” x 12” x 2” radiator all else being equal. The core volume is the same but Its distributing the heat over twice the air mass and that air mass heats less as it passes through the core.

 

[PandaBear]

What about water pump upgrade? Are there any water pump with different pulley diameter that you can use to spin the pump faster?

 

[meep]

Maine and NH are a lot lower in elevation. My living room is above the summit of Mt Washington. Your cooling air is a lot denser than mine. For any given amount of CFM's that are flowing through my radiator, I am getting ~20% less air mass than someone at sea level. This means my air cannot absorb as much heat and heats up faster as it passes through the radiator reducing the number of BTU's pulled from the radiator.

So far I have not seen anyone near sea level complaining about the Ecoboosts overheating nor have I ever seen anything about head gasket failure except on truck that were tuned and running stupid HP. The 2nd gen 3.5 Ecoboosts are making like 700 rwhp on the stock long blocks without headgasket issues.



The max tow trucks do have larger radiators. Well, not larger but thicker and with different fin densities and rows. That is kinda why I am curious about what the 5.0 trucks do. For the same year, they would have a smaller radiator than my truck would, but same width and height and same cooling fans.

The titan is a mechanical cooling fan?

ill bet a lot could be learned by shooting the radiator for IR temps under different driving conditions. I’ll bet it doesn’t have enough transfer area, especially at that altitude, to bleed off the heat. I’ll bet when the radiator itself climbs above a certain temp (they are seldom the same temp as the engine, for instance), it crosses a tipping point.on second thought, IR would be too slow. The moment you stop, pop the hood and fiddle with the meter, it’s already changed. Maybe a temp probe wrapped up with insulation around the radiator outlet would be the ticket.

someone mentioned an inter cooler upgrade. That would help power but if he Used the additional power, he’d make more heat and still not get it out. The cooling impact by breathing in slightly cooler air would be in the noise I think.

mechanical fan probably doesn’t do much above 40 mph. The airflow from ground speed will be more than the fan will pull. So I doubt the e-fan is a hindrance.

 

[skrypj]

What about water pump upgrade? Are there any water pump with different pulley diameter that you can use to spin the pump faster?

Not that I know of but check this:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/water-pump-question.340252/

pure accident but think it may be an upgrade according to everyone Ive talked too.

 

[Chris142]

ill bet a lot could be learned by shooting the radiator for IR temps under different driving conditions. I’ll bet it doesn’t have enough transfer area, especially at that altitude, to bleed off the heat. I’ll bet when the radiator itself climbs above a certain temp (they are seldom the same temp as the engine, for instance), it crosses a tipping point.on second thought, IR would be too slow. The moment you stop, pop the hood and fiddle with the meter, it’s already changed. Maybe a temp probe wrapped up with insulation around the radiator outlet would be the ticket.

someone mentioned an inter cooler upgrade. That would help power but if he Used the additional power, he’d make more heat and still not get it out. The cooling impact by breathing in slightly cooler air would be in the noise I think.

mechanical fan probably doesn’t do much above 40 mph. The airflow from ground speed will be more than the fan will pull. So I doubt the e-fan is a hindrance.

I r gun won't work on aluminum

 

[skrypj]

ill bet a lot could be learned by shooting the radiator for IR temps under different driving conditions. I’ll bet it doesn’t have enough transfer area, especially at that altitude, to bleed off the heat. I’ll bet when the radiator itself climbs above a certain temp (they are seldom the same temp as the engine, for instance), it crosses a tipping point.on second thought, IR would be too slow. The moment you stop, pop the hood and fiddle with the meter, it’s already changed. Maybe a temp probe wrapped up with insulation around the radiator outlet would be the ticket.

someone mentioned an inter cooler upgrade. That would help power but if he Used the additional power, he’d make more heat and still not get it out. The cooling impact by breathing in slightly cooler air would be in the noise I think.

mechanical fan probably doesn’t do much above 40 mph. The airflow from ground speed will be more than the fan will pull. So I doubt the e-fan is a hindrance.

ha! Already did that! This is the inlet of the thermostat housing just after the coolant comes out of the radiator.

coolant temps are like 210F at this sensor when the pcm reposts in the 240’s

 

[meep]

That’s good data. If the cooled water entering the engine is 210, there’s no way it can be kept beneath that. Nice work.

 

[skrypj]

Not sure if anyone saw this, but TFLTruck just posted a video on Sunday where they sent Andre's personal 2021 F150 Powerboost up the Vail Gaunlet and overheated it to the point that it went into power reduction mode:

https://tfltruck.com/2021/06/video-...ike-gauntlet-this-was-not-supposed-to-happen/

I am telling you, its not just me and not just my truck. This is a universal problem with the 3.5L Ecoboost and its cooling system when towing at altitude in tough conditions.

This is why I was curious what other half ton engines do in such conditions. Are they fine? Do they get hot as well?

 

[vwmaniaman]

My 2007 1500 Hemi tows my 24.5' fifth wheel over hills here in Kentucky without getting hot. Factory thermostat too. Temp never goes over 1/2. Has 219K on it. Gets 11mpg when towing. My old class A only got 7mpg with a great running 454 Chevy with full headers and duals and RV cam.

 

[thescreensavers]

Agree, but at some point you simply saturate the air flowing through the radiator, which i think is what is happening with the ecoboost.

A radiator with a larger frontal area can flow more air through it which means that air heats up less for the same BTUs shed.

A 24” x 24” x 1” radiator will shed far more heat than a 24” x 12” x 2” radiator all else being equal. The core volume is the same but Its distributing the heat over twice the air mass and that air mass heats less as it passes through the core.

to add to the conversation, I'm not sure the Mishimoto rad is helping here, thicker cores can reduce airflow especially since OP has an I/C that stack is already quiet thick so adding an additional inch could be messing with the airflow through the radiator and causing air to not go through it.

There is a reason all OEMs dont use thicker cores in that comparison posted above.

For a quick test you could tape some yarn and make some streamers and see how the airflow looks.