0w20 Specifications

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: PSE
First time poster.. lot's of good discussion and information on here!

I have decided to start doing my own work now that my Sienna is off of the Toyota free maintenance plan and looking for the best oil for a 10k interval.

Looking through all of the information on here, I have a question about the specification differences between 0w20's available.

There seems to be a dividing line between the auto OEM 0w20's (Toyota/Subaru, Mazda, Honda) and the big brand 0w20 specs (M1, PP, castrol...), with the auto OEM's spec'ing very high VI. The big brands going with something closer to their 5w20 spec rather than a high VI 0w20.

Does anyone know why oil companies are choosing not to make (market in the case of XOM), high VI oils, similar to Eneos or TGMO? Is it that the volume for the J-style oils is not there yet? Is this to have a product that is compatible with both 0w and 5w20 recommended engines (fuel economy play to 5w people)?




You are putting a lot of stock into VIs. What are the VI #s for Toyo, Honada, PP, etc.

I think one of our more respected members puts alot of stock in them too tig. As a matter of fact when recommending an oil,or even looking at different oils it's one of the first thing caterham mentions,which tells me there is something to them.
Or is it irrelevant,and no thought should be put into the viscosity index at all?

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you can pick up one of these oils for 5-6 bucks per quart, as is often the case, it really doesn't make much sense to use anything else in most situations.


I agree, and I'm really just splitting hairs. But if one lives by dealers who will only sell at retail, you're looking at $40 for five quarts instead of $25 for five quarts.

Myself, my next fill will be using TGMO, augmented with some 0W-40 if needed for noise attenuation as discussed prior.

 

[PSE]

tig1, yes, I am putting stock into it. I live in a cooler climate and the reduced losses during warmup helps fuel economy.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: tig1

First time poster.. lot's of good discussion and information on here!

I have decided to start doing my own work now that my Sienna is off of the Toyota free maintenance plan and looking for the best oil for a 10k interval.

Looking through all of the information on here, I have a question about the specification differences between 0w20's available.

There seems to be a dividing line between the auto OEM 0w20's (Toyota/Subaru, Mazda, Honda) and the big brand 0w20 specs (M1, PP, castrol...), with the auto OEM's spec'ing very high VI. The big brands going with something closer to their 5w20 spec rather than a high VI 0w20.

Does anyone know why oil companies are choosing not to make (market in the case of XOM), high VI oils, similar to Eneos or TGMO? Is it that the volume for the J-style oils is not there yet? Is this to have a product that is compatible with both 0w and 5w20 recommended engines (fuel economy play to 5w people)?




You are putting a lot of stock into VIs. What are the VI #s for Toyo, Honada, PP, etc.

I think one of our more respected members puts alot of stock in them too tig. As a matter of fact when recommending an oil,or even looking at different oils it's one of the first thing caterham mentions,which tells me there is something to them.
Or is it irrelevant,and no thought should be put into the viscosity index at all?[/quo

The OP mentions a high VI for Honda, Toyo, Mazda 0-20 oils. What are the numbers? I know M1 0-20 is 173.

 

[CATERHAM]

CoP made Honda full syn' 0W-20 - 177 VI, syn blend 176 VI
Toyota 0W-20 - 216 VI
Idemitsu made Mazda 0W-20, GF-4 - 197 VI, GF-5 - 221 VI

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
CoP made Honda full syn' 0W-20 - 177 VI, syn blend 176 VI
Toyota 0W-20 - 216 VI
Idemitsu made Mazda 0W-20, GF-4 - 197 VI, GF-5 - 221 VI


Thanks,
At what number is overkill VI for a PCMO? Some of the dino's are in the 140 range but still seem to to fine.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: beepers
Well that's one opinion. Problem with that is when the warranty specifies 5000 miles on conventional OR 10,000 on synthetic 0w-20... and of course you would be arguing your case in the Toyota service bay.


As a fairly recent convert to synthetics (and weening off my lifelong training for 3000 mi OCIs), I have followed all the 0W-20 threads closely. I now own two OE 0W-20 vehicles. The newest, the V6 Sienna, specs these oils with a 10,000 OCI without so much as an OLM. My Sienna has about 9,000 miles on the FF. A couple of years ago, I wouldn't let the FF go beyond 1,500 miles. But, just pulling the stick on this Toyota, the condition of the oil is very impressive. It is still dark amber in color (not even close to black), smells good (no fuel or burnt aroma), and exhibits plenty of lubricity rubbing it. [Don't tell me I can't tell an oil's condition by my senses because you'd be wrong] The performance of this oil in this engine is vastly superior to 3,000 miles in my MS3 for example. So, the oil makes a real difference but so does the engine you use it in (no relevation there).

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: beepers
Well that's one opinion. Problem with that is when the warranty specifies 5000 miles on conventional OR 10,000 on synthetic 0w-20... and of course you would be arguing your case in the Toyota service bay.


As a fairly recent convert to synthetics (and weening off my lifelong training for 3000 mi OCIs), I have followed all the 0W-20 threads closely. I now own two OE 0W-20 vehicles. The newest, the V6 Sienna, specs these oils with a 10,000 OCI without so much as an OLM. My Sienna has about 9,000 miles on the FF. A couple of years ago, I wouldn't let the FF go beyond 1,500 miles. But, just pulling the stick on this Toyota, the condition of the oil is very impressive. It is still dark amber in color (not even close to black), smells good (no fuel or burnt aroma), and exhibits plenty of lubricity rubbing it. [Don't tell me I can't tell an oil's condition by my senses because you'd be wrong] The performance of this oil in this engine is vastly superior to 3,000 miles in my MS3 for example. So, the oil makes a real difference but so does the engine you use it in (no relevation there).


I agree the condition can often be seen on a dip stick. Try the One Drop test. I do it at 7K and again at 10K. Here is a link.

http://www.acustrip.com/specs/onedrop.html

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
CoP made Honda full syn' 0W-20 - 177 VI, syn blend 176 VI
Toyota 0W-20 - 216 VI
Idemitsu made Mazda 0W-20, GF-4 - 197 VI, GF-5 - 221 VI


Thanks,
At what number is overkill VI for a PCMO? Some of the dino's are in the 140 range but still seem to to fine.

There is no VI that is overkill. As high a VI as is technically possible is the holy grail in lubrication for PCMO and HDEO. Ultimately you want an oil that has a perfectly stable viscosity, totally unaffected by changes in temperture.

An oil that has a VI of 140 is simply a very heavy oil on start-up for it's viscosity and it will thin out faster at high oil temp's. That's a typical VI of a 10W-30 and 15W-40 dino. Yes they work fine within there limitations. They have relatively poor cold starting performance and to avoid high wear issues one must be careful to warm up the engine properly before using full power. Additionally at very high oils temp's they can become too thin again causing increased engine wear.

With ultra high VI oils these issues largely disappear.

Check out the following thread, Viscosity Index 101:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2794004&page=1

Also the following Sustina video (fast forward half way through) provides a neat demonstration of the advantages as a high VI oil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JudB_abckRA

 

[tig1]

Caterham,
Thanks for the info and video. Very helpful.

Gerald

 

[PSE]

I partially answered my own question in another thread. It took me a week to piece it together. The 0w20 oil is there to meet CARB SULEV emissions levels, the higher the VI, the better. The Japanese are focusing on this because they rely on California for a large % of their sales (and they have similar domestic emissions requirements). Companies like Toyota need to sell enough SULEV vehicles in CA to be able to sell LFA's and Tundras. They also need to prove that a large majority of people are using the 0w20 oil for the life of the emissions system. Having a Toyota/OEM specific oil and insisting on its use helps convince CARB of that. In the case of TGMO, it's been referred to as "designed for your engine" on here.. so that marketing seems to be effective.

The high VI is not a new requirement for cold start engine durability or fuel economy. The oil is spec'ed that way to provide the largest possible benefit for emissions... possibly to thrift precious metal from the catalyst(?) that's my guess.. fuel economy and cold start wear come along as a side benefit.

This might take away some of the mystique from the high VI oils unless you are an environmentally conscious person. When you use these, you help the auto OEM's convince CARB that it has done enough good to sell more non-SULEV vehicles. The purpose of the auto OEM oils is about not having sales restricted by emissions in CA rather than making a magic mystery oil.