0W-16 Oil....... Really ??

[Patman]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD



Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?




I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.
What other possible explanation is there? Manufacturers don't like to spend millions of dollars researching something that isn't broke.



Because with thinner oils they can flow faster on startup, and if the engine is designed with that in mind to begin with, it can make slightly more power as well. And yes, fuel economy can get better but I don't think it's their only motive at all.

 

[SR5]

OP,
What engine is it anyway ?

The 2.5 Litre 2AR-FE VVT-I ? That is in the 2017 Camry here, not sure about the 2018 model.

For the 2017 model, Valvoline say you can use: 0W20, 5W30, 10W30, 15W40 and 20W50 (SN).
Just saying out of interest, I would follow your local owners manual to preserve warranty.

Hey !! Congrats on the new car !!!!
I would love a brand new Camry. It should serve you long and well.

 

[Snagglefoot]

In other words Valvoline says it makes no difference what weight you run. All we can do is chime in at the milestones. I have two vehicles with 150,000 miles using 10-30. Currently running a Taurus at 60,000 miles with 5-20 . No problems.

 

[double vanos]

Where’s the esteemed Dr. AE Haas when we need him?! I’m sure he will give this 0w16 oil a run in some high end super car like a Ferrari or Lamborghini. Ha ha.
I don’t have a leg to stand on in this discussion seeing as I run 0w40 oil in an engine spec’d for 5w30. OK I’m an idiot.

But there is a good chance that Toyota designed the engine with low viscosity oils in mind - perhaps the two were co-developed at the same time. The goal was maximum fuel economy, the means was reduced pumping losses via low vis oil. Toyota’s reputation for reliability pretty much guarantees success.

That’s what I was told by a Ford engineer when I asked about the use of a low viscosity transmission fluid ( mercon LV) in their new 6 speed auto. He told me the fluid and trans were developed together, Ford knowing that thicker fluids led to high pumping losses, therefore while the engineers were designing the trans, the lubrication engineers were developing a fluid to go in it simultaneously. Well, the fluid is definitely low viscosity but trans failures are few and far between.

If it were me, I’d give the 0w16 a try. If I didn’t like it for whatever reason, I switch to 5w20 without a second thought.

 

[farrarfan1]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: farrarfan1
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD
I'll bet that in other countries they're using a heavier oil.


That doesn't always mean that they are right. People always point to the fact that in Europe and Australia the same cars use heavier weight oils but part of it is the fact that those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all, so stores don't carry it.

Car makers aren't going to specify oils that will shorten the life of their engines. If these thin oils were causing engines to wear out prematurely don't you think we would have seen plenty of evidence of that by now? Ford and Honda have been specifying 5w20 for a couple of decades now.

It's so nice to read your calm, intelligent thoughts amidst the CAFE hysteria that has become so prevalent here over the past several years. The obsession some members have with what people in other countries use is, for lack of a better word, fascinating.
You don't think it's a little interesting that manufactures only spec one oil here, say 0W-20, and spec a buffet of oils in other countries? And the kicker. They may not even spec 0W-20 in that buffet.

Also, any hysteria certainly goes both ways. Plenty of members here believe xW-30 in an engine that recommends xW-20 will cause damage. Never mind that most xW-30s are barely thinker than 20s.


I cannot put in words how uninteresting it is to me what manufacturers recommend in other countries.I don't recall reading very often that using XW30 in place of XW20 will necessarily damage an engine, the argument against it is usually more about the warranty being denied in case of an oil related problem, and does it really provide more protection just because it's a tiny bit thicker.

The way I look at it this is still a free country and everyone is free to use whatever oil they want. However, in the unlikely event of an oil related failure then the person would probably have to prove that, based on their knowledge and experience, they are more qualified than the manufacturer to choose the right oil for their vehicle in order to keep the warranty intact. Just my opinion based on how civil actions are usually handled.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD



Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?




I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.
What other possible explanation is there? Manufacturers don't like to spend millions of dollars researching something that isn't broke.



Because with thinner oils they can flow faster on startup, and if the engine is designed with that in mind to begin with, it can make slightly more power as well. And yes, fuel economy can get better but I don't think it's their only motive at all.
I don't think the current crop of 0W-20 and 0w30 oils have any problem with cold flow in freezing conditions. I doubt many car companies are designing their regular vehicles around Siberian winters.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: farrarfan1


I cannot put in words how uninteresting it is to me what manufacturers recommend in other countries.I don't recall reading very often that using XW30 in place of XW20 will necessarily damage an engine, the argument against it is usually more about the warranty being denied in case of an oil related problem, and does it really provide more protection just because it's a tiny bit thicker.

The way I look at it this is still a free country and everyone is free to use whatever oil they want. However, in the unlikely event of an oil related failure then the person would probably have to prove that, based on their knowledge and experience, they are more qualified than the manufacturer to choose the right oil for their vehicle in order to keep the warranty intact. Just my opinion based on how civil actions are usually handled.
I'm curious why you're on an oil forum. Look in owners manual. Find the spec listed and when to change the oil. Go to store, buy oil with spec. Done. Or go to the dealer.

 

[farrarfan1]

[/quote]I'm curious why you're on an oil forum. Look in owners manual. Find the spec listed and when to change the oil. Go to store, buy oil with spec. Done. Or go to the dealer. [/quote]
Not that it matters, but I'm here because I like to read the technical articles written by highly qualified people like shannow, sonofjoe, MolaKule and a few others that are genuine experts in the field. And to check for bargains and sales. If it wasn't for BITOG I wouldn't know about my new favorite oil, Harvest King, and my favorite filter Fram Ultra. And, it's just good entertainment watching people get their panties all bunched up and throwing rocks at each other over oil!

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

One of the two reasons I don't own a new Toyota.

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
One of the two reasons I don't own a new Toyota.


118k on a 2004 why buy a new anything?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Actually, I noticed when 5-30 came out, some people said you should use 10-40. Now, with 0-20 out, some people are saying you should use 5-30. With 0-16, they say you should use 5-20. The beat goes on!


It's almost is if whatever you do, DO NOT use what the manufacturer recommends! Even if you're just a little bit off, you'll sleep much better at night.


If we follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, then most of us are amiss in not running a 20W-50.
There is also the typical logical fallacy that it's all about CAFE.
It's really about competitive advantage as well as the customer's wallet, both of which benefit from improved fuel economy.
Finally, any road vehicle is in the process of wearing out every mile that you drive it and every year that you own it. The thing is, the engine is typically not the part that causes vehicle retirement regardless of oil grade used.

 

[dblshock]

'The thing is, the engine is typically not the part that causes vehicle retirement regardless of oil grade used.'

lest you skip a TC tooth


thanks, but I'll keep my engine like new much longer on 0/40.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD
I'll bet that in other countries they're using a heavier oil.


That doesn't always mean that they are right. People always point to the fact that in Europe and Australia the same cars use heavier weight oils but part of it is the fact that those people just don't embrace the thinner oils at all, so stores don't carry it.


That old chestnut...rubbish...j

If Toyota thought that TGMO 0W20 was vital to the oerpation of their vehicles, they would have shipped it in with them...they didn't.

0W20 didn't hit THEIR shelves until the Subaru BRX/Toyota 86..and the Oz manual still offers 5W30 as an option.

We've had 0W16 on our shelves longer than the US.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: JLTD



Over 20,000 posts and been here since '02 and you haven't read the discussions about CAFE?




I have, and I just don't believe that the only reason for the thinner oils are for fuel economy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, and when people start spouting off about CAFE on here I tend to just roll my eyes, because that's what it smells like to me.


The manufacturers in their literature ALWAYS describe the movement to thinner oils for Economy/CO2, and usually with a "while still providing acceptable life" second paragraph.

What other reasons do you think that they are using them for ?

Why does the US manual list only one viscosity, and have the weight stamped on the oil cap, while in Oz our caps say "oil", and our manuals offer a range.

What makes you think that CAFE is a conspiracy ?

It's a mandate...get your numbers, then have to make every practical measure top get the punters to run the same grade as you qualified (e.g. grades on filler cap, and single grade recommended in manuals).

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: hatt

What other possible explanation is there? Manufacturers don't like to spend millions of dollars researching something that isn't broke.



Because with thinner oils they can flow faster on startup, and if the engine is designed with that in mind to begin with, it can make slightly more power as well. And yes, fuel economy can get better but I don't think it's their only motive at all.


Nope, the "0W" will flow faster at -40C than a "5W"...the thinner viscosities at regular temperatures don't get anywhere quicker then anything else...0W, 5W, or 10W whatever at 0C is getting there at the same time.

The engines that tehy sell in Oz aren't any different to the ones that they sell in the US market...same internals, same bearing clearances, the lot.

Honda ARE changing their designs, publicly in their published works...increasing bearing sizes, and reducing clearances, all measures to start getting back the minimum oil film thickness as they drop viscosity...looks like they are now chasing piston drag, and have had to bolster up the bottom end (which makes slightly more drag down there, but offset by pistons and skirts)

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
What makes you think that CAFE is a conspiracy ?


It doesn't matter if it is or isn't. I'm not seeing ANY proof that thicker oils dictate less wear in modern passenger car engines. If they did engines would be wearing out quicker from it's lack of use. They're not. They are in fact lasting longer as the oils used in them get thinner. There is no real world evidence that todays passenger car engines would last longer if everyone chucked their owners manual, and started running heavy weight oils.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The manufacturers in their literature ALWAYS describe the movement to thinner oils for Economy/CO2, and usually with a "while still providing acceptable life" second paragraph.


And that "acceptable life" is now longer than it's ever been.

 

[Shannow]

As I've ALWAYS maintained...if the engine lasts longer than the chassis, and the owner gets 2/10 of a MPG better mileage for that duration, then the trade-off is acceptable, and a good one.

It's just that the average American Male seems to have this thing going on in their head that to accept that the OEM made that particular trade-off, they are somehow less manly as a result...thus the vehemence in their arguments.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: SR5
OP,
What engine is it anyway ?

The 2.5 Litre 2AR-FE VVT-I ? That is in the 2017 Camry here, not sure about the 2018 model.

For the 2017 model, Valvoline say you can use: 0W20, 5W30, 10W30, 15W40 and 20W50 (SN).
Just saying out of interest, I would follow your local owners manual to preserve warranty.

Hey !! Congrats on the new car !!!!
I would love a brand new Camry. It should serve you long and well.


That's it. 2.5 Litre VVT-I. I'm not going to go on a big witch hunt for 0W-16. When it's available I'll use it per Toyota's recommendations. By the time I'm ready for my first oil change it's going to be HOT here. So I'm sure 0W-20 will be fine.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's just that the average American Male seems to have this thing going on in their head that to accept that the OEM made that particular trade-off, they are somehow less manly as a result...thus the vehemence in their arguments.


I would argue the, "average American Male seems to have this thing going on in their head", that a modern automobile engine will last longer, and be "better protected", if they run thicker oil than the manufacturer recommends. Because it is somehow better for it. When most everything shows the exact opposite. We're not having cars towed to the boneyard at 75,000 miles because they're running 0W-20 in them.