0W-16 Oil....... Really ??
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Originally Posted By: Penzoil Team
27. Is it safe to say that the newer developing technologies lie in increasingly thinner (
• Not necessarily. Fuel economy is a global challenge being tackled by scientists all over the world, and of course auto manufacturers are a global business. As engine oil requirements can vary by region, often the formulating issues posed can be unique to a region, but equally challenging globally. That said, the demanding CAFE environment has pushed lower viscosity, improved fuel economy engine oils in the US where the same could also be said for European and Asian markets as well.
Guess that they fell for the conspiracy also.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil Team
2. What are the teams concerns when it comes to direct injection engines and how is the team addressing the formulations particularly with 0W-16 oils.
• Shell has always provided oils suitable for direct injection engines. It is the combination of direct injection PLUS turbo charging (TGDI) that has necessitated the requirement for specifications like API SN PLUS. 0W-16 motor oils provide unique challenges in that the lower viscosity requires formulators to pay particular attention to engine wear control while maintaining tight control of oil volatility. The use of PurePlus base oils allow Pennzoil to formulate motor oils at the new, lower viscosity requirements while still maintaining excellent volatility contro
27. Is it safe to say that the newer developing technologies lie in increasingly thinner (
• Not necessarily. Fuel economy is a global challenge being tackled by scientists all over the world, and of course auto manufacturers are a global business. As engine oil requirements can vary by region, often the formulating issues posed can be unique to a region, but equally challenging globally. That said, the demanding CAFE environment has pushed lower viscosity, improved fuel economy engine oils in the US where the same could also be said for European and Asian markets as well.
Guess that they fell for the conspiracy also.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil Team
2. What are the teams concerns when it comes to direct injection engines and how is the team addressing the formulations particularly with 0W-16 oils.
• Shell has always provided oils suitable for direct injection engines. It is the combination of direct injection PLUS turbo charging (TGDI) that has necessitated the requirement for specifications like API SN PLUS. 0W-16 motor oils provide unique challenges in that the lower viscosity requires formulators to pay particular attention to engine wear control while maintaining tight control of oil volatility. The use of PurePlus base oils allow Pennzoil to formulate motor oils at the new, lower viscosity requirements while still maintaining excellent volatility contro
Penrite Oil says plus 10, see link, below. So run a 0W-26 !!
https://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/tec...Extra%20Ten.pdf
https://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/tec...Extra%20Ten.pdf
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Penzoil Team
27. Is it safe to say that the newer developing technologies lie in increasingly thinner (
• Not necessarily. Fuel economy is a global challenge being tackled by scientists all over the world, and of course auto manufacturers are a global business. As engine oil requirements can vary by region, often the formulating issues posed can be unique to a region, but equally challenging globally. That said, the demanding CAFE environment has pushed lower viscosity, improved fuel economy engine oils in the US where the same could also be said for European and Asian markets as well.
Guess that they fell for the conspiracy also.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil Team
2. What are the teams concerns when it comes to direct injection engines and how is the team addressing the formulations particularly with 0W-16 oils.
• Shell has always provided oils suitable for direct injection engines. It is the combination of direct injection PLUS turbo charging (TGDI) that has necessitated the requirement for specifications like API SN PLUS. 0W-16 motor oils provide unique challenges in that the lower viscosity requires formulators to pay particular attention to engine wear control while maintaining tight control of oil volatility. The use of PurePlus base oils allow Pennzoil to formulate motor oils at the new, lower viscosity requirements while still maintaining excellent volatility contro
A lot of those answers seemed very canned to me, almost like a bot response. It was mostly free advertising for Shell.
Originally Posted By: Penzoil Team
27. Is it safe to say that the newer developing technologies lie in increasingly thinner (
• Not necessarily. Fuel economy is a global challenge being tackled by scientists all over the world, and of course auto manufacturers are a global business. As engine oil requirements can vary by region, often the formulating issues posed can be unique to a region, but equally challenging globally. That said, the demanding CAFE environment has pushed lower viscosity, improved fuel economy engine oils in the US where the same could also be said for European and Asian markets as well.
Guess that they fell for the conspiracy also.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil Team
2. What are the teams concerns when it comes to direct injection engines and how is the team addressing the formulations particularly with 0W-16 oils.
• Shell has always provided oils suitable for direct injection engines. It is the combination of direct injection PLUS turbo charging (TGDI) that has necessitated the requirement for specifications like API SN PLUS. 0W-16 motor oils provide unique challenges in that the lower viscosity requires formulators to pay particular attention to engine wear control while maintaining tight control of oil volatility. The use of PurePlus base oils allow Pennzoil to formulate motor oils at the new, lower viscosity requirements while still maintaining excellent volatility contro
A lot of those answers seemed very canned to me, almost like a bot response. It was mostly free advertising for Shell.
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Penrite Oil says plus 10, see link, below. So run a 0W-26 !!
https://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/tec...Extra%20Ten.pdf
Penrite just making a very good point..ask yourself why these oil companies bother to make the upgraded viscosities if thin was the catsazz.
Penrite Oil says plus 10, see link, below. So run a 0W-26 !!
https://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/tec...Extra%20Ten.pdf
Penrite just making a very good point..ask yourself why these oil companies bother to make the upgraded viscosities if thin was the catsazz.
Originally Posted By: SR5
So a question about 0W-16 oil itself.
If you had two name brand oils from the same manufacturer, one a 0W16 and the other a 0W20, both formulated roughly similar with similar base stock.
Would you expect the 0W16 to contain less VII ? Which would have the lower Noack volatility ?
This data table, kindly provided by Wemay, answers my questions.
So a question about 0W-16 oil itself.
If you had two name brand oils from the same manufacturer, one a 0W16 and the other a 0W20, both formulated roughly similar with similar base stock.
Would you expect the 0W16 to contain less VII ? Which would have the lower Noack volatility ?
This data table, kindly provided by Wemay, answers my questions.
Relatively fresh SAE Paper by Nissan Engineers.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2017-01-0881/preview/
Note, found it while looking for side by side Comparison like the one above, thought people might be interested.
Some Infineum Insight...
Tyota rolling the 0W-16 out to dealers -
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2017-01-0881/preview/
Note, found it while looking for side by side Comparison like the one above, thought people might be interested.
Some Infineum Insight...
Tyota rolling the 0W-16 out to dealers -
Interesting articles. There is always talk in these 0W16 (and even thinner oils) development articles about possible excessive engine wear as a concern. Obviously engineers know the thinner you go the less headroom you have for engine wear protection.
It would be interesting to know what the vehicle designers shoot for in terms of engine life in terms of mileage based on the oil and maintenance schedule they recommend. Are they slowly decreasing the engine life target as these oils become thinner and thinner? Maybe the OCI will decrease some with the thinner oils because there is less headroom for viscosity loss due to fuel dilution.
It would be interesting to know what the vehicle designers shoot for in terms of engine life in terms of mileage based on the oil and maintenance schedule they recommend. Are they slowly decreasing the engine life target as these oils become thinner and thinner? Maybe the OCI will decrease some with the thinner oils because there is less headroom for viscosity loss due to fuel dilution.
This thread has such fascinating reading and has been so informative I had to come back. What I'm taking away is that for MOST vehicles in the US, a thinner oil will be just fine, and the engine will last a long time. However, there are some conditions or areas in the US (mountains, towing, towing in the mountains, etc) where the thinner oil's capacity to keep metal parts from touching each other will be compromised, and in these situations a thicker oil is in some cases required by the manufacturer.
I'll read the rest in a bit, but wanted to comment on these juicy tidbits while they're fresh:
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.
How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?
OP I agree for your driving conditions, you should be perfectly fine with 0w16, especially since your Toyota was designed for it. However if you decide to tow or drive with a heavy load in the mountains in very hot temperatures on a consistent basis, you may want to consider a heavier oil choice.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: spasm3
My 2017 CX-5 manual states that in the USA you must use 0w20 for the Warranty.
So..... Here we are, after arguing back and forth for over 12 pages. Posting "engineering letters" older than fossilized invertebrates. And comparing thinner oils to Bluetooth, cooling systems, and everything else except Grandma's chocolate chip cookies. And we still keep hitting the same wall.....
So tell me, what is going to be your choice in this matter? Are you going to preserve your new car warranty with Mazda, by running the oil they are telling you that you must use? Or are you going to, "protect your engine" with that wonderful, thicker oil the Mexicans are all using? Seeing as we're both new car owners, I'm curious, which in your case, do you think is the smarter play to make?
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: billt460
What is to be gained by going against manufacturer specifications and recommendations by using a thicker oil?
I don't know, I'd have to ask the engineers that built my car[/B] vs the corporate brass that wrote the warranty. Mazda seems to think thicker oil is better for Canadians and Mexicans, but not for Americans( which is where CAFE is in effect).
My 2017 CX-5 manual states that in the USA you must use 0w20 for the Warranty. The manual also states for Canada, and Mexico that you should use 5W-30, and only if 5W-30 is unavailable you should use 5W-20.
So according to the engineers, 5W30 is the best oil for Canada to Mexico, but not in between. CAFE is the only reason here.
So the engineers think something is to be gained with thicker oil, but only in Canada and Mexico.
In my research before buying my CX5 ( great vehicle by the way), I read that the SkyActiv engines were designed and built from the onset with 0w20 oil in mind. This is my first time as well running this grade but I have no worries in doing so. I will stick with major brands that meet d1G2 specs even though I don’t have the turbo. The engine runs quiet and smooth and frankly, these engines don’t work hardly at all in normal day to day driving.
I looked, really hard, at getting a CX-5 and almost did but it was a little small for 4. Agree that CAFE is the reason, since the CX-9 is specified for 5w30. It has the exact same engine, but with turbocharging. So 5w30 would function just fine in the CX-5 IMO.
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
If you want to see what viscosity is best for the engine, just look at the severe service in the OM.
If you want to see what is best for the car company to meet cafe, look at the normal service.
Going up a grade will never hurt anything.Engines are not that picky for 99% of the cars.
Has anyone here actually know anyone who had any oil related warranty claims?and denied because of using wrong oil?
Never seen a warranty denied (despite many dire warnings about it) due to oil viscosity. Not changing, yes. Viscosity, no.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Shannon, on your graphic it shows the US circle ending out around 3000rpm which is indicative of a normal urban grocery getter. These studies however try to lump everyone into a certain range. For a driver living in the Rockies, the southwest desert, the farm areas of the Midwest and lots of rural places in between, driving patterns are completely different than in say Orange County CA. Higher speeds and engine loads would place it closer to the autobahn.
Point. Downtown Los Angeles driving is very different than running the Ike Gauntlet.
I'll read the rest in a bit, but wanted to comment on these juicy tidbits while they're fresh:
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.
How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?
OP I agree for your driving conditions, you should be perfectly fine with 0w16, especially since your Toyota was designed for it. However if you decide to tow or drive with a heavy load in the mountains in very hot temperatures on a consistent basis, you may want to consider a heavier oil choice.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: spasm3
My 2017 CX-5 manual states that in the USA you must use 0w20 for the Warranty.
So..... Here we are, after arguing back and forth for over 12 pages. Posting "engineering letters" older than fossilized invertebrates. And comparing thinner oils to Bluetooth, cooling systems, and everything else except Grandma's chocolate chip cookies. And we still keep hitting the same wall.....
So tell me, what is going to be your choice in this matter? Are you going to preserve your new car warranty with Mazda, by running the oil they are telling you that you must use? Or are you going to, "protect your engine" with that wonderful, thicker oil the Mexicans are all using? Seeing as we're both new car owners, I'm curious, which in your case, do you think is the smarter play to make?
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: billt460
What is to be gained by going against manufacturer specifications and recommendations by using a thicker oil?
I don't know, I'd have to ask the engineers that built my car[/B] vs the corporate brass that wrote the warranty. Mazda seems to think thicker oil is better for Canadians and Mexicans, but not for Americans( which is where CAFE is in effect).
My 2017 CX-5 manual states that in the USA you must use 0w20 for the Warranty. The manual also states for Canada, and Mexico that you should use 5W-30, and only if 5W-30 is unavailable you should use 5W-20.
So according to the engineers, 5W30 is the best oil for Canada to Mexico, but not in between. CAFE is the only reason here.
So the engineers think something is to be gained with thicker oil, but only in Canada and Mexico.
In my research before buying my CX5 ( great vehicle by the way), I read that the SkyActiv engines were designed and built from the onset with 0w20 oil in mind. This is my first time as well running this grade but I have no worries in doing so. I will stick with major brands that meet d1G2 specs even though I don’t have the turbo. The engine runs quiet and smooth and frankly, these engines don’t work hardly at all in normal day to day driving.
I looked, really hard, at getting a CX-5 and almost did but it was a little small for 4. Agree that CAFE is the reason, since the CX-9 is specified for 5w30. It has the exact same engine, but with turbocharging. So 5w30 would function just fine in the CX-5 IMO.
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
If you want to see what viscosity is best for the engine, just look at the severe service in the OM.
If you want to see what is best for the car company to meet cafe, look at the normal service.
Going up a grade will never hurt anything.Engines are not that picky for 99% of the cars.
Has anyone here actually know anyone who had any oil related warranty claims?and denied because of using wrong oil?
Never seen a warranty denied (despite many dire warnings about it) due to oil viscosity. Not changing, yes. Viscosity, no.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Shannon, on your graphic it shows the US circle ending out around 3000rpm which is indicative of a normal urban grocery getter. These studies however try to lump everyone into a certain range. For a driver living in the Rockies, the southwest desert, the farm areas of the Midwest and lots of rural places in between, driving patterns are completely different than in say Orange County CA. Higher speeds and engine loads would place it closer to the autobahn.
Point. Downtown Los Angeles driving is very different than running the Ike Gauntlet.
“I looked, really hard, at getting a CX-5 and almost did but it was a little small for 4. Agree that CAFE is the reason, since the CX-9 is specified for 5w30. It has the exact same engine, but with turbocharging. So 5w30 would function just fine in the CX-5 IMO.”
For any turbo engine I would run a xW-30. That’s a personal choice.
“Point. Downtown Los Angeles driving is very different than running the Ike Gauntlet.”
I had to look that up. I’ve never heard the Eisenhower expressway coined in that term but then again I’ve never been to Colorado. In spite of that I would agree that if one’s driving is consistently on mountain passes and high heat conditions like the desert then a 30wt could be a consideration. Again it’s personal choice.
This summer my wife and I plan to take a road trip through the PNW high desert of eastern Oregon. If I lived there I would run a 30 but just passing through I’ll be confident with the 20.
For any turbo engine I would run a xW-30. That’s a personal choice.
“Point. Downtown Los Angeles driving is very different than running the Ike Gauntlet.”
I had to look that up. I’ve never heard the Eisenhower expressway coined in that term but then again I’ve never been to Colorado. In spite of that I would agree that if one’s driving is consistently on mountain passes and high heat conditions like the desert then a 30wt could be a consideration. Again it’s personal choice.
This summer my wife and I plan to take a road trip through the PNW high desert of eastern Oregon. If I lived there I would run a 30 but just passing through I’ll be confident with the 20.
On Page 18, hoo I should have come back earlier:
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
One thing I'd be concerned about with 0W-16 is any further decrease in viscosity due to extended OCI use, especially with a DI engine and wondering if the oil will maintain enough viscosity to provide adequate engine protection over the entire long OCI.
I asked that question in the up coming Pennzoil 0W-16 Q&A.
I for one will be happy to see their reply. With DI and dilution...who knows where the viscosity will end up.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
During this time, the viscosity is at the high end of it's range, and in specialist drag racing oils, they drop the viscosity to reduce the oil related drag during this mode of operation...AND are prepared to lose a bearing here and there.
So..... Just to be clear. If and when I ever decide to drag race my Camry, I should change out my oil to 0W-8. This in order to have my engine better protected for such a high stress application. That as we all know, the much thicker 0W-16 street oil does not offer...... Or......... Because I'm not, "prepared to lose a bearing", either here or there, perhaps I should keep the much thicker 0W-16 oil in it, that offers better bearing protection?
You said it yourself billt460; "perhaps I should keep the much thicker 0W16 oil in it, that offers better bearing protection". So it seems you agree or was that sarcasm? Hard to tell on a forum.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Our local Wal-Mart is only 1.5 miles from our house. On these 40 degree Winter mornings it takes about 2 to 3 minutes to get there. (Less if we get the green light on the corner). Hardly enough time for a proper warm up. So.... Should I go with the drag race boys, and fill my cold crankcase with 0W-8?.... Or... Stick with Toyota's much thicker mandate of 0W-16, and be properly protected when the engine reaches operating temperature?
Let me spell it out for you. The point here is that drag racers pretty much rebuild their engines after each pass. In their usage, they are going for maximum power, and do not give a rat's behind what happens to the internals of the engine. So they run the 0w8 oil, for the least friction, with the expectation of replacing numerous components after each 1/4 mile run because they're worn out.
You would probably be safe running 0w8 if you're just going to Mallwart and back every couple weeks with a cold startup, and your brand new car would last 2-3 years at least. But if you wanted to go any further, like on vacation, you'd need to change your oil first so your answer is "no", don't change to 0w8.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
One thing I'd be concerned about with 0W-16 is any further decrease in viscosity due to extended OCI use, especially with a DI engine and wondering if the oil will maintain enough viscosity to provide adequate engine protection over the entire long OCI.
I asked that question in the up coming Pennzoil 0W-16 Q&A.
I for one will be happy to see their reply. With DI and dilution...who knows where the viscosity will end up.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
During this time, the viscosity is at the high end of it's range, and in specialist drag racing oils, they drop the viscosity to reduce the oil related drag during this mode of operation...AND are prepared to lose a bearing here and there.
So..... Just to be clear. If and when I ever decide to drag race my Camry, I should change out my oil to 0W-8. This in order to have my engine better protected for such a high stress application. That as we all know, the much thicker 0W-16 street oil does not offer...... Or......... Because I'm not, "prepared to lose a bearing", either here or there, perhaps I should keep the much thicker 0W-16 oil in it, that offers better bearing protection?
You said it yourself billt460; "perhaps I should keep the much thicker 0W16 oil in it, that offers better bearing protection". So it seems you agree or was that sarcasm? Hard to tell on a forum.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Our local Wal-Mart is only 1.5 miles from our house. On these 40 degree Winter mornings it takes about 2 to 3 minutes to get there. (Less if we get the green light on the corner). Hardly enough time for a proper warm up. So.... Should I go with the drag race boys, and fill my cold crankcase with 0W-8?.... Or... Stick with Toyota's much thicker mandate of 0W-16, and be properly protected when the engine reaches operating temperature?
Let me spell it out for you. The point here is that drag racers pretty much rebuild their engines after each pass. In their usage, they are going for maximum power, and do not give a rat's behind what happens to the internals of the engine. So they run the 0w8 oil, for the least friction, with the expectation of replacing numerous components after each 1/4 mile run because they're worn out.
You would probably be safe running 0w8 if you're just going to Mallwart and back every couple weeks with a cold startup, and your brand new car would last 2-3 years at least. But if you wanted to go any further, like on vacation, you'd need to change your oil first so your answer is "no", don't change to 0w8.
Re: CX-5
Originally Posted By: PimTac
For any turbo engine I would run a xW-30. That’s a personal choice.
Just illustrating that the oiling systems are the same....
Originally Posted By: PimTac
For any turbo engine I would run a xW-30. That’s a personal choice.
Just illustrating that the oiling systems are the same....
What year Honda Fit? Has Honda back-dated 0w16 for some Honda models?
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.
How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?
Here:
http://www.isitpacked.com/2011/03/31/the-busiest-freeway-in-north-america-highway-401/
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839
This is the main commuting axis for Toronto. Not only are the traffic conditions gruelsome, but they also take place in temperatures ranging from -30 to +40 Celsius.
0W16, eh?
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.
How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?
Here:
http://www.isitpacked.com/2011/03/31/the-busiest-freeway-in-north-america-highway-401/
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839
This is the main commuting axis for Toronto. Not only are the traffic conditions gruelsome, but they also take place in temperatures ranging from -30 to +40 Celsius.
0W16, eh?
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.
How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?
Here:
http://www.isitpacked.com/2011/03/31/the-busiest-freeway-in-north-america-highway-401/
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839
This is the main commuting axis for Toronto. Not only are the traffic conditions gruelsome, but they also take place in temperatures ranging from -30 to +40 Celsius.
0W16, eh?
Yeah, I've run the 401 many times, and a few times through Toronto during rush hour. My average speed through there was about 30 mph, and it took me three hours to go 100 miles. Based on that, I wouldn't worry about excessively heating up the 0w16 oil in my Camry (if I was driving one) and thinning it out excessively. Mostly when I drive through the Toronto area, I worry about my bladder.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.
How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?
Here:
http://www.isitpacked.com/2011/03/31/the-busiest-freeway-in-north-america-highway-401/
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839
This is the main commuting axis for Toronto. Not only are the traffic conditions gruelsome, but they also take place in temperatures ranging from -30 to +40 Celsius.
0W16, eh?
Yeah, I've run the 401 many times, and a few times through Toronto during rush hour. My average speed through there was about 30 mph, and it took me three hours to go 100 miles. Based on that, I wouldn't worry about excessively heating up the 0w16 oil in my Camry (if I was driving one) and thinning it out excessively. Mostly when I drive through the Toronto area, I worry about my bladder.
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I don’t see why folks are not comfortable with manufacturers requirements. They’ve done the testing we haven’t.
Indeed. They’ve done the lab testing, we haven’t done the field testing (yet).
We can read about the unpaid [or pay to test, depending on how you feel about it] end user field testing right here on Bitog.
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I don’t see why folks are not comfortable with manufacturers requirements. They’ve done the testing we haven’t.
Indeed. They’ve done the lab testing, we haven’t done the field testing (yet).
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