'02 Accord 4-speed AT AMSOIL 15k mile OCI 75k car

[benjamming]

Code:

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ATF used AMSOIL ATF AMSOIL ATF Honda ATF Z1 Honda ATF Z1 Factory fill

Sample Date Sep-11-2007 Jan-19-2007 Jan-28-2006 Jan-29-2005 Mar-13-2004

Miles on oil 15,018 15,003 12,836 10,224 21,948

Miles on car 75,011 60,011 45,008 32,172 21,948

Make-up oil None None None None None

Aluminum: 118 74 36 27 26

Chromium: 1 1 1 1 1

Iron: 104 70 60 53 59

Copper: 18 8 7 7 9

Lead: 2 3 2 1 1

Tin: 0 0 1 1 1

Molybdenum: 0 1 1 1 0

Nickel: 0 0 0 0 0

Manganese: N/A 1 1 0 0

Silver: 0 0 0 0 0

Titanium: 0 0 0 0 0

Potassium: 0 0 0 0 0

Boron: 138 209 243 228 222

Silicon: 24 14 10 10 11

Sodium: 8 7 4 6 9

Calcium: 389 323 388 351 334

Magnesium: 123 136 258 221 208

Phosphorus: 239 176 2 8 3

Zinc: 159 206 356 320 242

Antimony: 1 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Barium: 0 1 2 3 4

Viscosity 100C: 5.9 45.8 44.3 45.4 45.0

Viscosity 40C: 27.3 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Flashpoint: 355 365 340 350 355

Water: 306 (KF) 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Insolubles: 0 (soot) Trace 0 0 0

Glycol: 2.77 N/A N/A N/A N/A

VI: 174 N/A N/A N/A N/A

TAN: 1.13 0.9 0.5 0.4 0.4

TBN: 0.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Fuel: 0.953 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Oxidation: 58 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Nitration: 6 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Sulfate: 59 N/A N/A N/A N/A

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It was drained & refilled with AMSOIL ATF when sample was collected. I will upload the magnetic drain plug pictures later. It pretty much looked like it always does.

I am considering changing the AMSOIL ATF every 3k miles for the next 3 changes to get a more complete changeover of fluid. I have also thought about ARX (3 bottles already in the garage) at some point during those short drain/refills.

Also, maybe I should park the Grand Am 3.1L V6 outside since it appears to be contagious (about to replace LIM for 2nd time on this car).

 

[Hermann]

Who did the analysis? Looks to me that Z-1 was doing as good of job as Amsoil. Does the car shift different and/or better? Have you had any problems with the tranny?

At 35K today, I did a drain and fill on my Accord today. It was it's 2nd D&F, first was at 20K. The fluid that came out today was still quite red. A curious observation was that the drained ATF has the distinct scent of gear lube. I know the smell from changing gear oil in my BMW Motorcycles trans and rear shaft drive 80w/90. Is this normal in ATF? Might do a analysis on this drain, I saved some.

 

[Tempest]

You have water & Glycol.

Might explain the wear numbers and thinning. Your luck with trannies is not good at the moment.

 

[benjamming]

Terry Dyson @ Dyson Analysis did the most recent. Blackstone did the rest.

Pictures from 11-Sep-2007 drain & refill

Pictures from Jan-19-2006 drain & refill

 

[Bobert]

Fuel? Where did that come from?

 

[unDummy]

Is a simple drain/refill being performed at each interval?
If so, shorten the interval. You're accumulating wear.
A few 3k drain/refills to clean out the tranny is a good start. A 7.5k interval would be better for partial maintenance.

Fuel/glycol/water readings might be a fluke. The readings aren't typically seen in UOAs. Understanding the scale used and a VOA would be helpful.

A full flow filter should be considered. Permacool it!

I wouldn't bother with any cleaning additives. Your transmission has a history of maintenance and is clean all by itself.

 

[benjamming]

Yes, a simple drain & refill is being performed at each sample interval. 3 qts removed & 3 qts added in a 7.6 qt capacity sump. I agree with the 7500 mile OCI for this tranny with only drain & refills. I should have been doing that from the beginning.

I'm going to look into installing a full flow filter. Have you installed some on Honda 4-speeds before?

I don't know about the glycol reading. Blackstone doesn't run glycol test on ATF for some stupid reason. Maybe they will for no charge if asked. Afterall, it's the same price as an engine UOA where fuel & glycol are performed.

I thought about the Auto-Rx b/c there is still some OEM fluid in there with a lot of miles right now that might be leaving some deposits, etc.

 

[mfisher1967]

I am not inclined to think that the Amsoil ATF was the cause for the increased wear (Read below). Are you considering switching back to Honda Z1 ATF given the UOA results with the Amsoil ATF in your vehicle?

Could the Glycol in the 9/11 UOA be backing into your transmission cooler via a small leak? I am not sure if this is possible, as it depends on whether or not the pressure in your radiator is higher than the pressure in the transmission cooler coil.

Could fuel be backing into your radiator coolant via a small leak somewhere? You could have multiple issues, which may explain explain how fuel and Glycol ended up in your ATF.

What did Terry think about your UOA results? I know that you can't provide his recommendations verbatim due to his intellectual property statute.

 

[Cutehumor]

antifreeze in trans fluid? check your coolant, check for color. see any brown oily grime? your trans cooler could be leaking where the atf line goes into the radiator

 

[Pablo]

I'm not sure what to make of the odd readings here. Fuel? That just sounds whacked. Almost 1%???

Coolant is a real possibility - yes a rad will have more pressure than the ATF, think about engine off while hot.

I'm not sure what to say, but it looks like the tranny is self digesting. Do some diagnostics, really flush the tranny, put a filter in and start over again.

And Terry says?

 

[benjamming]

Remember, the fuel is checking for aromatics.

I have no intention of going back to Honda's Z1 fluid.

Terry says: "Please do not share my comments or audio interpretation." He thought the results rather interesting.

The coolant color is fine. I drained & refilled about 10k miles ago.

I am in the process of trying to determine if there really is coolant in the trans fluid. It appears to be an internal connection. The car is currently only driven once per week till I figure this out.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

benjamming, just a thought -
could your refill or sample collection method have any possibility of 'contaminating' the new fluid or the sample ?

sometimes things like funnels, tubes etc..used for other purposes can skew results like this.

 

[benjamming]

That was actually my first thought and caused me to freak out. I have a funnel for each different fluid. They are all labeled for their purpose - brake, a/f, oil, distilled water for battery, ATF, and power steering. I was afraid that I had used my antifreeze/water funnel on the ATF. I checked and I really don't believe that was the case.

There is no way that I can think of where the sample was contaminated during collection. I wasn't doing any other work when changing the ATF. The bottle was opened after the ATF started coming out. The sample was caught and finished during midstream. The bolt & the area around it was cleaned prior to loosening. The bottle could have arrived dirty, but I really doubt that.

The fill bolt & surrounding area were cleaned prior to loosening. There was no foreign material around to be dropped into the fill hole & no lost items afterwards. The dipstick was wiped clean with a new cloth.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

what about windshield washer fluid ? any chance that got in the way somehow.
Arn't water, glycol and aromatics/alcohol the three main (only?) ingredients of windshield washer fluid ?

 

[benjamming]

nope.

 

[The Critic]

Any update?

 

[gogozy]

i am seeing higher wear reading in amsoil than Z1, i thought Amsoil is a improvement to Z1. maybe i miss something can someone explain...
thanks

 

[Pablo]

We discussed the possible coolant a bit here (related to Ben's recent thread), but it doesn't show up on the next analysis. Was it an analysis fluke or singular coolant event?

 

[benjamming]

The coolant result was one reason I decided to go with 3k mile drain/refills. If it was a singular coolant event, it will help purge the coolant quicker as bearings will die sooner rather than later. If it was an analysis fluke, no harm as there are other reasons for increasing the d/r interval.

I will send another sample to Terry in ~ 3700 miles. We'll be better informed once the 2nd result from Terry's lab comes back.

Blackstone doesn't test for glycol in oil. That is why the glycol results above are N/A and not zero.

The radiator pressure test showed no decay. The color is still fine. The levels don't change either. No leaks.