There seems to be some confusion in the eyes of the general public as to what they can run in thier new vehicles. I am relatively positive that a MAJOR lawsuit from many years ago between oil company's and auto manufactures concluded that it was illegal for the manufacturer to "require" that a certain brand of oil be ran in an engine. Only minimum specs for an oil to meet could be required, such as, but not limited to, the API rating of an oil. A friend today bought a brand new ford diesel, and was told that if he ran schaeffers in it they would not honor the warranty on his motor. I am pretty positive that they are not legally allowed to do that, or probably even say that, but he believes it, along with countless others, and I am without physical proof to convince them otherwise. I'm no lawyer and have no clue where to even start looking for that kind of paperwork. So if anyone on here has any knowledge on the subject to share, or links they can post with printable legal documents on the issue, that would sure help me out. I am SOOOOO tired of hearing "well I run (fill in the OEM) oil because it's under warranty and I have to."
illegal oil "requirements" from dealerships?
- Thread starter ramechanic4
- Start date
- Status
As long as the oil meets the manufacturer specification the dealer/maker cannot void your warranty, it is illegal.
Magnuson-Moss Warranty act...
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Magnuson-Moss Warranty act...
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
i'd take the truck back,many states have a cooling off period on new vehicle purchases.but thats me.
Wow, that was quick. Thanks for the link. I knew this was the place to go to find someone who would know what I was talking about.
Is anyone else running into this with thier local dealers spreading mis-information. I understand they want to sell parts, but breaking the law to do so seems, oh I don't know, ILLEGAL!!! Not to mention unethical. I can't be the only one out there annoyed by this?
Is anyone else running into this with thier local dealers spreading mis-information. I understand they want to sell parts, but breaking the law to do so seems, oh I don't know, ILLEGAL!!! Not to mention unethical. I can't be the only one out there annoyed by this?
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
ram:
I have noticed over the past few years that many car manufacturers are easing back into coaxing owners into believing that they should use the car maker's own label product after staying away from this for decades. However, unlike years ago they carefully word things to avoid being sighted for violating the MM Warranty Act.
I have noticed over the past few years that many car manufacturers are easing back into coaxing owners into believing that they should use the car maker's own label product after staying away from this for decades. However, unlike years ago they carefully word things to avoid being sighted for violating the MM Warranty Act.
Dealer personnel (and for that matter, many corporate types) know nothing about Magnuson-Moss. Strictly speaking, a dealer/mfr can't even claim to void a warranty if you use a product not in conformance with their specs (e.g. using Red Line oil, which carries no oem approvals in your Ford, BMW, etc.). These kind of practices are treated as restraint of trade and verboten under the Federal Trade Commission Act. However, as a practical matter, if you have some failure that the dealer wants to blame on using a non-approved product, you may have to get a lawyer to resolve the matter -- and if the dealer/mfr can show that the failure did result from using the non-approved product, then the warranty can be voided legally. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt192.shtm
Lexus dealer
Sales: Selling me prepaid maintenance plan
me: I'll do the oil changes my self its fine
sales: You cant, your not certified and you'll void that warranty!
I loled
Sales: Selling me prepaid maintenance plan
me: I'll do the oil changes my self its fine
sales: You cant, your not certified and you'll void that warranty!
I loled
That is why it is very important to make sure that the product your using meets the OEM specifications even if by the letter of the law doesn't absolutely have to, you'll have a much easier time of disputing any move by the mfr to void the warranty.
Of CRITICAL importance KEEP ALL RECEIPTS AND IF POSSIBLE DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE PRODUCTS YOU USE THAT STATE SPECIFICATIONS...eg labels, MSDS, ect.
Of CRITICAL importance KEEP ALL RECEIPTS AND IF POSSIBLE DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE PRODUCTS YOU USE THAT STATE SPECIFICATIONS...eg labels, MSDS, ect.
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Dealer personnel (and for that matter, many corporate types) know nothing about Magnuson-Moss. Strictly speaking, a dealer/mfr can't even claim to void a warranty if you use a product not in conformance with their specs (e.g. using Red Line oil, which carries no oem approvals in your Ford, BMW, etc.). These kind of practices are treated as restraint of trade and verboten under the Federal Trade Commission Act. However, as a practical matter, if you have some failure that the dealer wants to blame on using a non-approved product, you may have to get a lawyer to resolve the matter -- and if the dealer/mfr can show that the failure did result from using the non-approved product, then the warranty can be voided legally. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt192.shtm
I realize that using something that doesn't meet certain requirements, such as API rating, may legally void the warranty. But that is rarely rarely the dealers statement, I agree with you that in most cases, dealer personel are likely ignorant of the fact they are breaking the law when they make these claims.
Dealer personnel (and for that matter, many corporate types) know nothing about Magnuson-Moss. Strictly speaking, a dealer/mfr can't even claim to void a warranty if you use a product not in conformance with their specs (e.g. using Red Line oil, which carries no oem approvals in your Ford, BMW, etc.). These kind of practices are treated as restraint of trade and verboten under the Federal Trade Commission Act. However, as a practical matter, if you have some failure that the dealer wants to blame on using a non-approved product, you may have to get a lawyer to resolve the matter -- and if the dealer/mfr can show that the failure did result from using the non-approved product, then the warranty can be voided legally. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt192.shtm
I realize that using something that doesn't meet certain requirements, such as API rating, may legally void the warranty. But that is rarely rarely the dealers statement, I agree with you that in most cases, dealer personel are likely ignorant of the fact they are breaking the law when they make these claims.
the stealers either really dont know or they are doing what most of them do best...
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
I realize that using something that doesn't meet certain requirements, such as API rating, may legally void the warranty. But that is rarely rarely the dealers statement, I agree with you that in most cases, dealer personel are likely ignorant of the fact they are breaking the law when they make these claims.
I don't think it's entirely that way to be honest with you. I think they just don't care because it's hard to "crack down" on dealer personnel making illegal claims.
What is truly sad is the people that are not informed that they do not have to go to the dealership for everything. It should be stated very clearly with every new car purchase that you don't have to visit the dealer for all repairs/maintenance to maintain your warranty.
I realize that using something that doesn't meet certain requirements, such as API rating, may legally void the warranty. But that is rarely rarely the dealers statement, I agree with you that in most cases, dealer personel are likely ignorant of the fact they are breaking the law when they make these claims.
I don't think it's entirely that way to be honest with you. I think they just don't care because it's hard to "crack down" on dealer personnel making illegal claims.
What is truly sad is the people that are not informed that they do not have to go to the dealership for everything. It should be stated very clearly with every new car purchase that you don't have to visit the dealer for all repairs/maintenance to maintain your warranty.
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
There seems to be some confusion in the eyes of the general public as to what they can run in thier new vehicles. I am relatively positive that a MAJOR lawsuit from many years ago between oil company's and auto manufactures concluded that it was illegal for the manufacturer to "require" that a certain brand of oil be ran in an engine. Only minimum specs for an oil to meet could be required, such as, but not limited to, the API rating of an oil. A friend today bought a brand new ford diesel, and was told that if he ran schaeffers in it they would not honor the warranty on his motor. I am pretty positive that they are not legally allowed to do that, or probably even say that, but he believes it, along with countless others, and I am without physical proof to convince them otherwise. I'm no lawyer and have no clue where to even start looking for that kind of paperwork. So if anyone on here has any knowledge on the subject to share, or links they can post with printable legal documents on the issue, that would sure help me out. I am SOOOOO tired of hearing "well I run (fill in the OEM) oil because it's under warranty and I have to."
MM Act states they can't void the warranty for running non OEM parts/oil.....BUT Ford is REALLY SENSITIVE about their diesel engines after the mess they (and International) had with the 6.0 Power Stroke a while back. Ford lost a lot of diesel engine credibility in 03-04. The 6.4 Power Stroke was a better engine and put Ford back on the diesel map. But I digress. The latest 6.7 diesel is all Ford (no International partnership)and I can see where they are coming from because they want to make this engine's debut/launch as smooth and snag-free as possible and that may by why some overzealous Ford service/dealer personnel are pushing Ford products-to eliminate any potential 3rd party issues. Bottom line, if you run a Ford diesel and you are under warranty, run Motorcraft filters for the visual bling and run whatever oil you like that meets Ford's diesel spec.
There seems to be some confusion in the eyes of the general public as to what they can run in thier new vehicles. I am relatively positive that a MAJOR lawsuit from many years ago between oil company's and auto manufactures concluded that it was illegal for the manufacturer to "require" that a certain brand of oil be ran in an engine. Only minimum specs for an oil to meet could be required, such as, but not limited to, the API rating of an oil. A friend today bought a brand new ford diesel, and was told that if he ran schaeffers in it they would not honor the warranty on his motor. I am pretty positive that they are not legally allowed to do that, or probably even say that, but he believes it, along with countless others, and I am without physical proof to convince them otherwise. I'm no lawyer and have no clue where to even start looking for that kind of paperwork. So if anyone on here has any knowledge on the subject to share, or links they can post with printable legal documents on the issue, that would sure help me out. I am SOOOOO tired of hearing "well I run (fill in the OEM) oil because it's under warranty and I have to."
MM Act states they can't void the warranty for running non OEM parts/oil.....BUT Ford is REALLY SENSITIVE about their diesel engines after the mess they (and International) had with the 6.0 Power Stroke a while back. Ford lost a lot of diesel engine credibility in 03-04. The 6.4 Power Stroke was a better engine and put Ford back on the diesel map. But I digress. The latest 6.7 diesel is all Ford (no International partnership)and I can see where they are coming from because they want to make this engine's debut/launch as smooth and snag-free as possible and that may by why some overzealous Ford service/dealer personnel are pushing Ford products-to eliminate any potential 3rd party issues. Bottom line, if you run a Ford diesel and you are under warranty, run Motorcraft filters for the visual bling and run whatever oil you like that meets Ford's diesel spec.
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+
Actually, at this time, Schaeffer's has NO API certifications( listed on API directory site ). I know in the past the 7000 series was API certified but it does not appear to be now. On Schaeffers site they do not claim API SM certification at this time. Just comments that it meets or exceeds now. I know in the past they claimed full certification for it and I had seen it on the API directory site. The product photo shows the Starburst still but it does not appear that it is certified any longer?
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+
Actually, at this time, Schaeffer's has NO API certifications( listed on API directory site ). I know in the past the 7000 series was API certified but it does not appear to be now. On Schaeffers site they do not claim API SM certification at this time. Just comments that it meets or exceeds now. I know in the past they claimed full certification for it and I had seen it on the API directory site. The product photo shows the Starburst still but it does not appear that it is certified any longer?
Read the wording carefully on what the owners manual says. On my 04 Dodge it says "Use only Diesel Engine Oil meeting standard MIL-2104C or API classification CD or higher or CCML D4, D5."
The Magnuson Moss Act isn't worth anymore than the 36 year old piece of paper is was written on in todays society.
The Magnuson Moss Act isn't worth anymore than the 36 year old piece of paper is was written on in todays society.
AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil.
AMSOIL further backs its products with action when a Dealer or customer reports being told their warranty is voided if they use synthetics.
If you have heard from any member of a business that the use of AMSOIL Motor Oil or the practice of extending drain intervals will void warranties, send AMSOIL all the details including the name of the business, business owner or manager and the individual making the claims, in a signed and dated letter. Send the letter to the Technical Services Department at corporate headquarters and an AMSOIL representative will send them a letter explaining the facts.
Access to the complete Magnuson-Moss Act is available on the Internet by key words Magnuson-Moss Act or Federal Trade Commission.
AMSOIL further backs its products with action when a Dealer or customer reports being told their warranty is voided if they use synthetics.
If you have heard from any member of a business that the use of AMSOIL Motor Oil or the practice of extending drain intervals will void warranties, send AMSOIL all the details including the name of the business, business owner or manager and the individual making the claims, in a signed and dated letter. Send the letter to the Technical Services Department at corporate headquarters and an AMSOIL representative will send them a letter explaining the facts.
Access to the complete Magnuson-Moss Act is available on the Internet by key words Magnuson-Moss Act or Federal Trade Commission.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+
Actually, at this time, Schaeffer's has NO API certifications( listed on API directory site ). I know in the past the 7000 series was API certified but it does not appear to be now. On Schaeffers site they do not claim API SM certification at this time. Just comments that it meets or exceeds now. I know in the past they claimed full certification for it and I had seen it on the API directory site. The product photo shows the Starburst still but it does not appear that it is certified any longer?
Here it is off Schaeffer's site : http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/TD Sheets/700.pdf
The bold lettering at the top of the page is enough for me, not to mention the label on the back of the bottle. I can't speak for the API site, but I doubt Schaeffers would put it in the tech data and on the bottle without it being fact.
Originally Posted By: ramechanic4
Originally Posted By: WMSmotorhead
Although we agree that Schaeffer's is good stuff, is it API certified? If it's not, then I can see why the manufacturer may object.
Yes, the Schaeffers 15-40 is API SM rated, as well as CJ-4/CI-4/CI-4+
Actually, at this time, Schaeffer's has NO API certifications( listed on API directory site ). I know in the past the 7000 series was API certified but it does not appear to be now. On Schaeffers site they do not claim API SM certification at this time. Just comments that it meets or exceeds now. I know in the past they claimed full certification for it and I had seen it on the API directory site. The product photo shows the Starburst still but it does not appear that it is certified any longer?
Here it is off Schaeffer's site : http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/TD Sheets/700.pdf
The bold lettering at the top of the page is enough for me, not to mention the label on the back of the bottle. I can't speak for the API site, but I doubt Schaeffers would put it in the tech data and on the bottle without it being fact.
Amsoil PCO 15W40 is API Certified CI-4+. Schaeffer is no longer API Certified. See http://eolcs.api.org/
The fact that Schaeffer claims to "...meet or exceed..." API requirements does not make it API Certified and could lead to warranty claims being denied if such claims were lubrication related.
Any manufacturer has the right to require motor oil meet certain specifications. If you use non-manufacturer branded motor oil that meets those specifications, and change the oil at manufacturer recommended intervals, they cannot legally deny a warranty claim based on improper lubricant or OCI. OTOH, if you use a lubricant that does not meet the manufacturer's specification, you are taking a chance.
The fact that Schaeffer claims to "...meet or exceed..." API requirements does not make it API Certified and could lead to warranty claims being denied if such claims were lubrication related.
Any manufacturer has the right to require motor oil meet certain specifications. If you use non-manufacturer branded motor oil that meets those specifications, and change the oil at manufacturer recommended intervals, they cannot legally deny a warranty claim based on improper lubricant or OCI. OTOH, if you use a lubricant that does not meet the manufacturer's specification, you are taking a chance.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
