Foam in SF MTL-R manual transmission

[Titan]

Put SF MTL-R in a Subaru manual transmission, and it sure shifts better.

But, I drove it for 5-6 miles and checked the level to make sure I had no leaks/loss, and it sure was foamy. Sounds like I maybe have it too full? I didn't think I did, because I took an identical container to the one the MTL-R came in, and poured the old oil into it, and matched the same volume to put back in the transmission. I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to check the level when it isn't foamy in order to get an accurate reading.

Is foam OK in this situation? Thanks for any advice...

 

[Pablo]

How much foam are you talking about?

Did the old stuff foam?

 

[Titan]

Well, I don't remember seeing foam on the dipstick when I checked the original fluid when it was warm. The amount of foam now is hard to quantify...the dipstick is foamy up above the level of the "full" mark. When it was cold, before I drove it, it was maybe a hair above full, and no bubbles at all. Now that I've let it sit 30 minutes, I'm going to check it again.

 

[crew219]

IIRC Mola mentioned something about the fluids taking 500mi or so before all the additives / modifiers would be "activated".

That being said . . . I just shook up my gallon of MTL-R quite a bit and noticed foaming that doesn't dissipate quickly. I'm hoping this isn't an issue.

Perhaps it would foam less as its heated up.

Dave

 

[Titan]

OK, the foam is almost gone completely, and I notice the level is almost 1/4 inch above full. So, I think I have my problem solved. I forgot that when I changed the fluid, I added a little MTL-R in the filler to flush more of the original fluid out. Maybe I put more of this flush in than I thought, and I have it slightly overfilled by the time it got warm. Sorry for the semi-panic. I'll drain some out tomorrow and test it again to see what happens...hopefully, it will behave, because I sure do like how it shifts now.

 

[Titan]

Originally posted by crew219:
[QB] IIRC Mola mentioned something about the fluids taking 500mi or so before all the additives / modifiers would be "activated".
That being said . . . I just shook up my gallon of MTL-R quite a bit and noticed foaming that doesn't dissipate quickly. I'm hoping this isn't an issue.
Perhaps it would foam less as its heated up.


Hmm. Well, I took out enough that my fluid level was just below the full line when cold. I shook the jug with MTL-R in it until it got foamy, put it in the garage, and took the car for a test-drive. Yep, silky-smooth shifting, just like yesterday. Drove it pretty hard for 10 miles, and checked it...foamy...it looks like pink foam from someone in fulminating pulmonary edema! Anyway, went to the garage, and...same thing is sitting on top of the MTL-R in the jug! I can see how the dipstick would pick this up and present itself as complete foam, when, in fact, it might just be a thin layer of foam on the top.

Anyway, I guess it is Normal and not to be worried about? The shift quality certainly didn't change in the hard 10-mile test drive, but, I've got 110 miles to drive today, and will be traveling all next week...

 

[crew219]

quote:

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Originally posted by Titan:

Hmm. Well, I took out enough that my fluid level was just below the full line when cold. I shook the jug with MTL-R in it until it got foamy, put it in the garage, and took the car for a test-drive. Yep, silky-smooth shifting, just like yesterday. Drove it pretty hard for 10 miles, and checked it...foamy...it looks like pink foam from someone in fulminating pulmonary edema! Anyway, went to the garage, and...same thing is sitting on top of the MTL-R in the jug! I can see how the dipstick would pick this up and present itself as complete foam, when, in fact, it might just be a thin layer of foam on the top.

Anyway, I guess it is Normal and not to be worried about? The shift quality certainly didn't change in the hard 10-mile test drive, but, I've got 110 miles to drive today, and will be traveling all next week... [/QB]

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Doing a little bit of searching on foaming led me to these quotes by Mola.

quote:

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You can't judge a fluid's anti-foaming capability by the way it foams when pouring from one container into another. All fluids will foam.

The important thing is how quickly the bubbles dissappear after settling. All gear lubes have anti-foaming chemistry in them.

---

quote:

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There are two defoamer compounds currently in use, one is a low molecular weight acrylate and the other is a special high molecular weight siloxane.

The amount and type of defoamer is dependent on the application and different defoamers are used for gear lubes, hydraulic oils, etc.

Just because an oil foams doesn't mean it lacks defoamers. The amount of defoamer required is determined by an ASTM test which determines how long the bubbles are held and when they burst, and the change in density of the fluid.

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And these links.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001924#000000
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001403#000001
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000026

It probably isn't an issue but I am curious as to why it stays foamy for so long. Like you mentioned, its a thin layer of foam on the surface but it does stay on there for awhile.

My only suggestion would be to drive a whole week on it and put some miles on it and see if its still bad by next weekend.

Dave

 

[bruce381]

Surface foam IMHO is not a big deal more problematic is AIR entranment if the oil has surface foam not a big deal unless it builds to the point of foaming out a fill hole. Then more or a different AF or defoamer is needed. I know of at least 5 chemistries that are used and they must be matched to the oil product on a product by product basis.
bruce

 

[Titan]

quote:

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Originally posted by bruce381:
Surface foam IMHO is not a big deal more problematic is AIR entranment if the oil has surface foam not a big deal unless it builds to the point of foaming out a fill hole. Then more or a different AF or defoamer is needed. I know of at least 5 chemistries that are used and they must be matched to the oil product on a product by product basis.
bruce

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Thanks, Bruce and Dave. I received messages from Mola and another very well respected person that is familiar with the product and testing of such products. All indications point to this being a non-issue. Surface foaming just doesn't seem to be a problem. My VERY limited understanding of lubrication simplified the idea that the presence of air=poor lubrication qualities. Apparently, it's cavitation and larger bubbles that are a problem, not this surface phenomenon.

I really appreciate the fantastic information available from this site, the people that monitor it, and the manufacturers themselves.

 

[MolaKule]

I just filled an order for another MTL-R customer and saw the phenomenon.

The HDP-2 jugs seem to promote small bubbles because of the dimpled surface texture, and tend to trap bubbles in the neck and handle.

If one tilts the bottle, you should see the foam dissipating. In my case just a moment ago, I shook the bottle and the tiny bubbles formed but disspated within 15 seconds after tilting the bottle to expose them to the air in the bottle. Also, realize there is small vapor pressure in the bottles that tend to slow the bubble burst.

ASTM tests allow 15 minutes or so for bubbles to dissapear, so I am convinced we have the proper type and amount of defoamant for this viscosity of fluid.

 

[crew219]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
I just filled an order for another MTL-R customer and saw the phenomenon.

The HDP-2 jugs seem to promote small bubbles because of the dimpled surface texture, and tend to trap bubbles in the neck and handle.

If one tilts the bottle, you should see the foam dissipating. In my case just a moment ago, I shook the bottle and the tiny bubbles formed but disspated within 15 seconds after tilting the bottle to expose them to the air in the bottle. Also, realize there is small vapor pressure in the bottles that tend to slow the bubble burst.

ASTM tests allow 15 minutes or so for bubbles to dissapear, so I am convinced we have the proper type and amount of defoamant for this viscosity of fluid.

---

I'll believe that . . .

I did the shake test but this time I looked inside the bottle instead of on the sides. The sides had that thin layer of foam but the fluid itself had none.

Thanks for the explanation and I can't wait to get this in tomorrow or tuesday!

Dave

 

[Titan]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
How much foam are you talking about?

Did the old stuff foam?

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I kept the original fluid, shook it until it had a little foam in it (very hard to do), and it dissipated very quickly...5-10 minutes? The foam in the jug of MTL-R lasts for hours. It's a very thin layer of foam...not like beer or anything...but, being a non-expert, it does concern me.

 

[SilverGGA]

I've had MTL-R in my WRX and haven't seen any foam when I checked my oil.

Did you drain the old oil hot, and put back the same volume of new MTL-R? If so, you probably put too much in it. 1 gallon of hot oil out is less than 1 gallon of cold oil in. When your new oil warms up, it expands and will have more volume than what you had. I think this might explain why you had 1/4 inch of oil above the full mark.

 

[Titan]

OK, a little more information on the "problem".

I drove it a few hundred miles, mostly highway, and in town for a week. I sometimes notice the foam, sometimes don't...I found it depends upon how I am parked! My theory is that a small area of this "foam" may be on the very very top surface, and at the highest point of the pool of fluid. If my dipstick goes into the pool of foam, it climbs the dipstick and coats it as I pull it out...making it look like a LOT of foam, and overfilled, too, when it really isn't so. I got this theory from shaking the left-over jug and observing the foam produced. If you shake it very vigorously and leave it untouched, a small area of foam will remain for at least half a day! If you roll the jug around so the foam can touch the sides of the jug, the foam can disappear in seconds/minutes.

Anyway, I'm extremely happy with the shift quality, and am not concerned with this foam idea at all. Just thought since I brought it up, I should follow up with what I've found so nobody would misinterpret what is going on with SF MTL-R.