when will they start making batteries last longer?

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Go buy Interstate Batteries.

You won't find any Exide or Johnson Control batteries in the oil field trucks in West Texas.

Only Interstates.

Doesn't JCI make some of the Interstate batteries?

 

[Anduril]

I'm not sure if batteries are any worse or if it's all the always-on electronics in new cars that don't allow them to stay fully charged that's killing them.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Go buy Interstate Batteries.

You won't find any Exide or Johnson Control batteries in the oil field trucks in West Texas.

Only Interstates.

Interstate is JCI. JCI does have a good chunk of the OEM and aftermarket battery business in the US. They used to be decent, now they are either Mexican or Saudi made and it's a [censored] on quality/longevity.

I had an Optima die in a low-stress environment after 4 years. I've replaced with a O'Reilly-branded Deka.

 

[barryh]

Originally Posted By: Anduril
I'm not sure if batteries are any worse or if it's all the always-on electronics in new cars that don't allow them to stay fully charged that's killing them.


It's become an issue with smart alternators where charging is controlled by the engine management system. In an attempt to save fuel they have complex algorithms to reduce charging voltage much of the time. Then there is the current draw of the multitude of ECU's that take time to go to sleep and are too easily woken up again. You only have to open a door while the car is parked up in the garage and it triggers a substantial current draw. All in all it's impossible for one of these cars to finish a journey with a 100% charged battery. To get the battery to 100% charge I'm finding I need to put it on charge for an hour or two every week.

 

[FCD]

Just got myself a new Varta Silver 74Ah 750A battery, boy does it make the old Ford start quick!! starts within less than a second of cranking, from cold!!
The old Motocraft? or Ford Silver-Calcium 60 Ah 590A was kaput.

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: barryh
Originally Posted By: Anduril
I'm not sure if batteries are any worse or if it's all the always-on electronics in new cars that don't allow them to stay fully charged that's killing them.


It's become an issue with smart alternators where charging is controlled by the engine management system. In an attempt to save fuel they have complex algorithms to reduce charging voltage much of the time. Then there is the current draw of the multitude of ECU's that take time to go to sleep and are too easily woken up again. You only have to open a door while the car is parked up in the garage and it triggers a substantial current draw. All in all it's impossible for one of these cars to finish a journey with a 100% charged battery. To get the battery to 100% charge I'm finding I need to put it on charge for an hour or two every week.

Indeed. Heres the voltage table from the PCM of my wrecked 2004 CV. Its coolant temperature VS voltage commanded.
Code:


1023F 13.29V

170F 13.29V

120F 14.00V

65F 14.00V

20F 14.70V

-1024F 14.70V

Once the engine is warm, the battery is only seeing about 13.2V at the posts. Thats not sufficient to top off the battery, even hot. Explains why I had to put a battery in that car every 2 years. It might just be me, but I think the battery manufacturers saw this train coming and thats why everyone dropped pro-rate battery warranties like a hot potato. Along with other things like only a single warranty return and reduction in free replacement period. Im sure they saw their warranty returns making the Everest climb and it wouldnt take a genius to go get a few dozen rental cars and probe them for a bit.

I dont have access to my '03s PCM yet, but it seems to be similar, which is why Im not even gonna look at putting an Odyssey in it until I change that output table. Last thing I wanna do is smoke a $300 battery.


Here is a thread where we discussed the modern GM approach.
TL;DR They are monitoring current flow into/out of the battery via a hall effect sensor on the negative battery cable. When the current going into the battery drops below some threshold, and some other conditions are met (headlights being off appearantly one of them) the alternator commanded voltage drops to under 13.0V.

Every 0.1% of fuel economy. Unfortunately, in the real world Ill think no one will ever realize REAL money savings as the way they are programmed sacrifices battery life. 2-3 years vs 6+ years under a old 'dumb' alternator.

 

[Soggydog]

Both the oem batteries batteries in my F250 died within about 2.5 years 28k miles. One was leaking acid around the posts. I was still under warranty so I called my dealer. They told me it was a wear item and not covered under the the 3/36. I called another that gladly told me to bring it in. Two new motorcraft batteries covered under warranty. One of those started leaking acid around the post after 2 years so I priced a new battery from the napa we deal with through work. I forget what I quoted but later that day I got a call and the napa guy told me he had some old stock (2014 in 2016) AGM's that were the group for my truck that he would sell me cheap. He removed any obvious indication of where they came from and sold them with no warranty. No problems as of about 1 year.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: nthach

Interstate is JCI. JCI does have a good chunk of the OEM and aftermarket battery business in the US. They used to be decent, now they are either Mexican or Saudi made and it's a [censored] on quality/longevity.
I had an Optima die in a low-stress environment after 4 years. I've replaced with a O'Reilly-branded Deka.


That Sucks! (I haven't bought a new battery in several years)

It's going to have to be Deka for me (East Penn) from here on out, or nothing.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: barryh
It's become an issue with smart alternators where charging is controlled by the engine management system. In an attempt to save fuel they have complex algorithms to reduce charging voltage much of the time


I think battery size and location are the biggest factors.

I'm unconvinced that the new charging systems have an adverse effect on battery life. I can easily access an engineering menu on my G8 and watch the battery state of charge in real time on the dash multi function display. The car makes no effort to keep the battery at 100%. It typically keeps it about 65%, with occasional excursions into the 50's and 70's. Charge it to 100% on a smart charger, and the car will let it go down into the 70's right away. When it does charge, it does it very slowly. It has a huge Delco in the trunk, that powers a 200 watt HF/VHF transceiver, in addition to the normal car load.

My wife's '04 Jaguar has an ordinary charging system, I think, but it came with a huge Varta in the trunk that went thirteen years. The puny Delco under the hood of her Torrent only made it about five. It does not have the smart charging system that the G8 has.

Rough roads might have some adverse effect on poorly constructed batteries. Not much you can do about that.

 

[Ammofirst]

When they develop an aversion to $$$

 

[kc8adu]

there are batteries built to last.
but you wont like the price and they will also die prematurely from abuse/neglect.
like i tell my new to solar customers.buy cheapies for your first set as you WILL murder them before you get the hang of their proper use/care.
i have industrial gels that are now 20 years old.just now showing need of replacement.
and a 15 year old optima redtop that is still fine even when parked 3 months.
the key is maintenance.
the optima is on a small solar panel on the dash.
before i started it after a long sit i measured voltage.it was at 13.2.
and this was after dark so the solar charger was not contributing.
dont expect a new optima to do this.
they have had the durability engineered out of them by bean counters now.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: Win

I'm unconvinced that the new charging systems have an adverse effect on battery life. I can easily access an engineering menu on my G8 and watch the battery state of charge in real time on the dash multi function display. The car makes no effort to keep the battery at 100%. It typically keeps it about 65%, with occasional excursions into the 50's and 70's. Charge it to 100% on a smart charger, and the car will let it go down into the 70's right away. When it does charge, it does it very slowly. It has a huge Delco in the trunk, that powers a 200 watt HF/VHF transceiver, in addition to the normal car load.

My wife's '04 Jaguar has an ordinary charging system, I think, but it came with a huge Varta in the trunk that went thirteen years. The puny Delco under the hood of her Torrent only made it about five. It does not have the smart charging system that the G8 has.

Rough roads might have some adverse effect on poorly constructed batteries. Not much you can do about that.



GM's new charging system was more to get a few CAFE points than helping extend battery and alternator life. I'm not sure how GM's system controls voltage, but most cars with PCM/ECM controlled alternators have a circuit in the voltage regulator that's connected to the PCM which adjusts the drive current.

It's not as sophisticated as Audi/BMW/Mercedes that need to have the battery type(wet/AGM) and its capacity coded in as hard variables to the body/power management module(s).

German cars for the exception of most VWs tend to have long-lived batteries, under the seats or in the trunk in an enclosure protects them from extreme temperature swings. I did see an AAA tech try to swap out a battery in a new Beetle last night. It was even worse than swapping it out in a Chrysler Sebring/Concorde/300M that required the front driver's wheel to be removed.

 

[kc8adu]

if it read battery temp that table would be fine.
sure it doesnt have a battery temp sensor?
if it really is coolant based bump the65,120 to 14.7 and above that to 13.8
that would be better but not ideal.
it would allow battery to recover faster.
i have seen 16v when cold on a temp compensated reg in my cs130.
but it never goes below 14 hot.
acceptable with ca/ca type.
not so good with sb/sb or ca/sb.

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws

Indeed. Heres the voltage table from the PCM of my wrecked 2004 CV. Its coolant temperature VS voltage commanded.
Code:


1023F 13.29V

170F 13.29V

120F 14.00V

65F 14.00V

20F 14.70V

-1024F 14.70V

Once the engine is warm, the battery is only seeing about 13.2V at the posts. Thats not sufficient to top off the battery, even hot. Explains why I had to put a battery in that car every 2 years. It might just be me, but I think the battery manufacturers saw this train coming and thats why everyone dropped pro-rate battery warranties like a hot potato. Along with other things like only a single warranty return and reduction in free replacement period. Im sure they saw their warranty returns making the Everest climb and it wouldnt take a genius to go get a few dozen rental cars and probe them for a bit.

 

[sleddriver]

HTX heat & humidity is hard on any battery. Why? Chemical to electrical power conversion. Also why batteries up North may not work as well here and vice versa.

I used to cycle through more than a few Interstates before I realized (here on BITOG) that the indy shop was using an Interstate battery that was recommended, but too small. It didn't fill the battery tray.

I began using one that would and now have more life.

To lengthen your dual? battery life, I'd recommend opening your hood when home at the end of the day, and venting all that heat rather than further hot-soaking your engine + batteries.

Remember, we only have two seasons: Summer & Feb.!

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver

I used to cycle through more than a few Interstates before I realized (here on BITOG) that the indy shop was using an Interstate battery that was recommended, but too small. It didn't fill the battery tray.

I began using one that would and now have more life.

JCI has been specing smaller batteries in some of their retail channels for stock consolidation. Especially in Japanese applications, they'll call for a group 35 when the original battery was a group 24F/27F. Costco now carries the bigger 24F for those applications, but outside of Interstate/Sears and maybe another chain you can't find a 27/27F. I looked at a Mercedes once and there was a small Everstart(47) when it needed the bigger 49.

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: kc8adu
if it read battery temp that table would be fine.
sure it doesnt have a battery temp sensor?
if it really is coolant based bump the65,120 to 14.7 and above that to 13.8
that would be better but not ideal.
it would allow battery to recover faster.
i have seen 16v when cold on a temp compensated reg in my cs130.
but it never goes below 14 hot.
acceptable with ca/ca type.
not so good with sb/sb or ca/sb.


Yeah, it is coolant temp unfortunately. Agree it would be fine table for battery temp monitoring.
This is what I came up with but didnt get a chance to test before I wrecked the car.
Code:


1023F 14.30V

190F 14.30V

120F 14.50V

77F 14.70V

20F 15.10V

-1024F 15.50V

I'd like to tinker with a microcontroller like an Arduino or something to control it instead. The control is just a 125Hz square wave duty cycle at VBatt. At minimum use a temp sensor bolted to battery post but if possible monitor current with a hall effect sensor. Then I'd be aggressive with the temp table, have it start there to charge as quick as possible, and pull back once the battery is no longer accepting any charge to avoid needless gassing.

 

[WyrTwister]

FWIIW

Recently purchased a 2006 Buick Lacrosse 3.8l .

Pressing the button for the driver information , it shows 14.3 volts .

This car is usually driven , in town runs , once / twice a week .

Battery does not appear to be very old & it starts fine .

Best wishes ,

 

[ludey]

Yes, batteries are a expendable item. My Bosch battery made by exude died after 4 years and 3 months but, when I came to pay the pro-rate amount. It was less than a subway sandwich. That I can accept as long as it doesn’t die when I need it the most.