Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?

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Originally Posted By: dblshock
I'd say a 5.7 Chrysler is a very poor engineering benchmark to argue this point on


I think that was my point in the MDS clatter discussion.

I'm going to start typing slowly now for Billt460...

Per the OP's question, the title of this thread, the manufacturers are going to thinner oils for fuel economy/CO2...period.

Chrysler followed suit.

Chrysler decided to build an MDS system that when the valves are supposed to cycle normally are supplied oil at 3-4psi. When the valves are supposed to be disabled, they bump that up to 15-16psi. This oil pressure is controlled via the MDS solenoids when the oil temperature gets above 120F (about 50Cst give or take on a 5W20).

Chrysler designed the function of the (ridiculous from my perspective as an engineer) MDS system/solenoids that they designed to operate oil their oil of choice...which they chose for economy reasons.

The fact (and Billt460 still hasn't proven it to be a fact with one opinion piece) that it plays up on other viscosities is not proof that they chose 5W20 for its superior MDS function, it's that their silly system is so finicky that it can't really cope in the real world.

Now, per Bill's opinion piece, a question that I don't know the answer to...do any of the SRT-8s have MDS ?

What's the factory fill and recommended viscosity for these engines ?

Why, if not 5W20 is it NOT 5W20 on the high performance engine ?

Is it because that grade has compromises that they don't want on a high performance engine ?

Does the MDS play up from the factory like it WILL according to Billt460 ?

What "damage" are the Chrysler engineers making their customers suffer doing this ?
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Does your MDS system function at anything less than operating temperature ?
Does MDS work in Canada in winter ?

If so, then this "thick oil disables the MDS" is baseless drivel.

Unless there is a simple if>then logic built into the system to keep it from operating until a certain temperature is reached.


There is. 30C is normally the minimum oil temperature required before the MDS is enabled.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The fact (and Billt460 still hasn't proven it to be a fact with one opinion piece) that it plays up on other viscosities is not proof that they chose 5W20 for its superior MDS function, it's that their silly system is so finicky that it can't really cope in the real world.


The system works just fine. And has for the last 13 years since Chrysler introduced it. There are millions of them on the road. All you have to do is use the correct factory recommended 5W-20 oil it's designed to operate on. It seems everyone who owns one of these engines has no problem understanding this. I'm not sure why you do.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
O M1 0W40, which is specified in the SRT-8s (which point has been ignored)

The 6.4 is not equipped with MDS.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: Shannow
O M1 0W40, which is specified in the SRT-8s (which point has been ignored)

The 6.4 is not equipped with MDS.

The 6.4 SRT does most certainly have the MDS.
They don't in the standard transmission and you pay a gas guzzler tax but they have the MDS in the automatic transmission. I know, I have one.
 
Also I would like to add my buddy has a 5.7 Hemi with MDS and runs 5w30 with no issues in Pennsylvania year around in a all wheel drive Charger.
Has over a 100,000 miles without a issue.
 
Last edited:
Funny what Chrysler says regarding the OP's original question...

https://www.dodge.com/download/pdf/manuals/2010-Challenger-OM-2nd.pdf

Quote:
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 5.7L EngineSAE 5W-20 engine oil is recommended for all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy.


Then

Quote:
NOTE:Vehicles equipped with a 5.7L engine must use SAE 5W-20 oil. Failure to do so may result in improper operation of the Multi-Displacement System (MDS). Re-fer to “Multi-Displacement System” in “Starting and Operating” for further information.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Bill, what happens if you run something in one of these engines like Red Line 5w-20, which, under the HTHS regime, is very much like an ordinary 5w-30?


The oil used in the 5.7 HEMI has to be 5W-20....... And has to meet Chrysler Spec MS-6395 for your engine warranty to remain intact. I have no idea if the Red Line 5W-20 meets that Spec. If it does you're good to go. I use Pennzoil Full Synthetic 5W-20. And have since I bought the vehicle. It's easy to get around here. (Wal-Mart carries it for just $22.45 @ 5 quart jug).
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
The oil used in the 5.7 HEMI has to be 5W-20.......


Quick, ring Chrysler and tell them that they are wrong...

http://cdn.dealereprocess.com/cdn/servicemanuals/chrysler/2013-300srt8.pdf

Quote:
Engine Oil ViscositySAE 0W-40 Full Synthetic engine oil is preferred for usein all operating temperatures.The engine oil filler cap also shows the recommended engine oil viscosity for your engine. For information on engine oil filler cap location, refer to “Engine Compart-ment” in “Maintaining Your Vehicle” for further informa-tion.


You can get back to the 6.4s and 40 grade any time you like too...
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
And has to meet Chrysler Spec MS-6395 for your engine warranty to remain intact.


Funny, they don't say that in the manuals I've linked...

Chrysler must really be setting their customers up if what you say is true...

http://cdn.dealereprocess.com/cdn/servicemanuals/chrysler/2013-300srt8.pdf
Quote:
or best performance and maximum protection under all types of operating conditions, the manufacturer only recommends full synthetic engine oils that meet the American Petroleum Institute (API) categories of SM orSM/CF.


For the 5w20 engine
https://www.dodge.com/download/pdf/manuals/2010-Challenger-OM-2nd.pdf

Quote:
For best performance and maximum protection under alltypes of operating conditions, the manufacturer only recommends engine oils that are API Certified and meetthe requirements of Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395.


Note, "recommends", NOT "requires"...can't deny warranty on a recommends, sorry...

But they also say
Quote:
American Petroleum Institute (API) Engine Oil Identification Symbol This symbol means that the oil has been certified by the American Petroleum Institute (API). The manufacturer only recommends API Certified engine oils.
.
.
.
Lubricants that do not have both, the engine oil certifi-cation mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used.


again, "should", not "must"...leglly there's a difference.

Mate, you are on a roll with your emphatic statements.
 
Does it matter what evidence shows that the whole thing oil is for CAFE. Manual readers are rule followers and they would run a different air pressure in every tire if that manual said to and not question it.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Mate, you are on a roll with your emphatic statements.


It's becoming comical watching you trying to create so much drama around all of this. People buy new vehicles, and they do and use what the manual says. Why is this such an issue with you? Most, including myself, are not the least bit interested in trying to see what else we can use and get away with. That might or might not work. Because there is zero benefit to doing it. If it's recommends or requires, what's the difference? Other than you trying to play both grammar police and lawyer at the same time. I paid $45K for a new vehicle. I'm going to do and use what the manual tells me to. I'm not interested in trying to deviate from that, in some silly, stupid attempt to see what I can get away with. And possibly risk voiding my warranty in the process. For what?

For the last 8 pages you've been running around here, desperately trying to make this into something it isn't. And you're sounding more foolish with every post. I keep asking you this, and you keep dodging it. What is to be gained by using any other type or weight of oil, other than what the manufacturer recommends / requires / mandates, or whatever? Regardless if you can get away with it. Or if it works, or not?

People have had trouble with their MDS Systems when they tried using a thicker oil. It's all over the Internet, and on most every Chrysler vehicle forum. The replies are always the same.... Use the factory recommended 5W-20 oil. You don't want to accept or believe it. I don't care. You can pack your crankcase with wheel bearing grease, if that's what you think will work best for you. You're not only trying to argue a completely worthless point. You totally lack any common sense doing it.

You keep carrying on and on about how this is all about mileage and nothing else. Even though in every forum that deals with 5.7 HEMI engines, people have said their MDS System acts up when they switch to a different oil. If it's all about mileage as you say it is. I, and everyone else who runs a HEMI with MDS should be able to have a good functioning engine regardless of the oil I put in it. That's not the case. What other "proof" do you need? You're like dog chasing it's tail. The only difference is even they figure out at some point they'll never catch it, and give up.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: billt460
And has to meet Chrysler Spec MS-6395 for your engine warranty to remain intact.


Funny, they don't say that in the manuals I've linked...


Learn how to use the Internet.

https://www.jeep.com/download/pdf/manuals/2016-Grand_Cherokee-OM-3rd.pdf

"Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) — 5.7L Engine

MOPAR SAE 5W-20 engine oil approved to FCA Material
Standard MS-6395 such as Pennzoil, Shell Helix or
equivalent is recommended for all operating temperatures.

NOTE: Vehicles equipped with a 5.7L engine must use
SAE 5W-20 oil. Failure to do so may result in improper
operation of the Fuel Saver Technology."

Now, I'm going to assume you can interpret, "Fuel Saver Technology" as MDS. If you are having trouble with that as well, let me know.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Learn how to use the Internet.


Reading and comprehension aren't your strong suit are they ?

Is English your second language ?

As I stated, "recommended" is not sufficient to deny warranty.

Isn't the latter a part that I already posted ?...after they said that the viscosity was for economy ?
 
Nice edit...

Now, what bout when they specify 0W40 for the MDS ?

Are they lying ?

Which way, 5W20, or 0W40...they must be lying on one.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
.... 0W40, which is specified in the SRT-8s....


Originally Posted By: Shannow
Now, what bout when they specify 0W40 for the MDS ? Are they lying ? Which way, 5W20, or 0W40...they must be lying on one.


No one is "lying" to you. Are you really this foolish, or simply this dumb? You are talking about 2 different engines. The 5.7 HEMI V-8's require 5W-20 oil for proper MDS operation. The 6.4 HEMI SRT engine requires 0W-40. You really need to settle down and read your own posts. You're starting to become unglued here. Even the dog chasing it's tail will eventually get dizzy enough to fall over.
 
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