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#4297569 - 01/09/17 10:33 AM Questions about Kelly Blue Book
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
I found an '05 Five Hundred AWD SEL for sale from a reputable dealer with only 46k on the odo for 5,995. I thought to myself, that seems like a good deal. I look at KBB.com and the value of said car in good condition is only $3,220 private party and 5,332 from a dealer! Why does it seem like the KBB value on these cars is so low?

Also, Can anyone explain why there is such a large difference in value between buying from a private party and buying from a dealer on KBB values? Should you really expect to pay so much more money when you go to negotiate the price of a used car at the dealer vs. a private party?

Is there anything I have too worry about with this car being 12 years old but super low mileage? Other than of course, I am going to thoroughly inspect it myself.


Edited by 7055 (01/09/17 10:36 AM)
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#4297572 - 01/09/17 10:38 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
rooflessVW Online   content


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 2051
Loc: North Carolina
Dealers have overhead, and generally provide more "insurance" when you buy a vehicle from them.

KBB pricing varies wildly from extremely optimistic to flat-out incorrect. Black Book is a more realistic guide, and looking at recent auction transactions is most accurate.

Ultimately, any commodity is worth what someone is willing to pay, and the easiest way to know you got a fair price is if you feel like you did.
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#4297574 - 01/09/17 10:40 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
I wonder if maybe the Five Hundred didn't have a good reputation and thus had relatively low resale values.
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#4297581 - 01/09/17 10:45 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
Miller88 Offline


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 11848
Loc: Onondaga County
Originally Posted By: 7055
I wonder if maybe the Five Hundred didn't have a good reputation and thus had relatively low resale values.


Apart from the CVT issues on some of them, Five Hundreds had a great reputation. That was one of the first cars that Ford got "right". Helps that it is a Volvo, of course.
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#4297583 - 01/09/17 10:47 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
JayhawkRoy Offline


Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 933
Loc: Basehor, KS
A couple of observations.
1. Some dealers price their cars higher than book value so that they can go down, and every one "feels good" about the deal. I see this a lot in the Kansas City area.
2. I don't have access to the Black Book, so I look at nadaguides.com, KBB and Edmunds, to see how closely they compare on a single vehicle. I then decide which value I may choose to use as leverage with the dealer.
3. Keep in mind older vehicles may require some work to get ready for the lot, so the dealer retail values reflect a level of work that private party values do not. Overhead, etc also play a part in the higher dealer pricing.
4. In general I try to hit a midpoint (or lower) between private party and dealer retail as I negotiate a used car price. Patience can pay off.

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#4297584 - 01/09/17 10:47 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: Miller88]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: 7055
I wonder if maybe the Five Hundred didn't have a good reputation and thus had relatively low resale values.


Apart from the CVT issues on some of them, Five Hundreds had a great reputation. That was one of the first cars that Ford got "right". Helps that it is a Volvo, of course.


Yea the suspension feels great on them, I drive one right now with 275k on it and the 6 speed auto has been really bad for the past 70k, banging and slamming. Had some electrical issues too, but at this mileage you kind of expect it.

This one I'm looking at buying is a CVT so hopefully it won't have any of those CVT issues but with 46k on it, seems unlikely.


Edited by 7055 (01/09/17 10:48 AM)
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#4297586 - 01/09/17 10:47 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
Gasbuggy Offline


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 1770
Loc: PA
Values are low because no one wants them. Check out what a Taurus would be worth from the same year.
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#4297591 - 01/09/17 10:57 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: Gasbuggy]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Values are low because no one wants them. Check out what a Taurus would be worth from the same year.


Okay, I must have had a brain [censored] and entered the wrong mileage, actual KBB values are:

05 Five Hundred SEL Private Party at 46k: $4,492
05 Five Hundred SEL Dealer at 46k: $6,604

05 Taurus Private Party at 46k: $3,387
05 Taurus Dealer at 46k: $5,406


And why does nobody want a Five Hundred?


Edited by 7055 (01/09/17 10:59 AM)
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#4297595 - 01/09/17 11:02 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: Miller88]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: 7055
I wonder if maybe the Five Hundred didn't have a good reputation and thus had relatively low resale values.


Apart from the CVT issues on some of them, Five Hundreds had a great reputation. That was one of the first cars that Ford got "right". Helps that it is a Volvo, of course.


Ford engine Volvo suspension?
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#4297605 - 01/09/17 11:15 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 9546
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: 7055



And why does nobody want a Five Hundred?


Because everyone thinks they need an SUV...
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#4297619 - 01/09/17 11:30 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: javacontour]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: 7055



And why does nobody want a Five Hundred?


Because everyone thinks they need an SUV...


You're saying full-size sedans in general are dying?
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#4297622 - 01/09/17 11:36 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
SirTanon Offline


Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1233
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Originally Posted By: 7055
And why does nobody want a Five Hundred?


The Five Hundred was just a renamed Taurus for about 4 years or so, because the new Ford CEO at the time wanted to revamp the entire naming convention.

People know what a Taurus is, because it's been around for decades. Nobody knows what the heck a Five Hundred is, even though it's essentially the same car. Consequently, it's not as popular.

Personally, I find the Five Hundred to be a very nice car. If you're interested, and they're asking $5,995 for it, then offer $4,800 and make them negotiate back up. I bet you can get into it for around $5,200.
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#4297635 - 01/09/17 11:53 AM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: SirTanon]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: 7055
And why does nobody want a Five Hundred?


The Five Hundred was just a renamed Taurus for about 4 years or so, because the new Ford CEO at the time wanted to revamp the entire naming convention.

People know what a Taurus is, because it's been around for decades. Nobody knows what the heck a Five Hundred is, even though it's essentially the same car. Consequently, it's not as popular.

Personally, I find the Five Hundred to be a very nice car. If you're interested, and they're asking $5,995 for it, then offer $4,800 and make them negotiate back up. I bet you can get into it for around $5,200.


Do you recommend getting it pre-inspected by a mechanic first and does the customer typically pay for that?
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#4297651 - 01/09/17 12:05 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
Kira Offline


Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 3311
Loc: Champlain/Hudson Valley
Pay an indie to work for you, yes.

Also, from my perspective, the nix on the Five Hundred was the CVT. I was told by a Ford service writer that they couldn't keep up with the warranty claims for rebuilt CVTs let alone have one on the shelf.

I have a coworker who's aunt had one and loved it.

CVTs spook me. Kira

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#4297665 - 01/09/17 12:16 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: Kira]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: Kira
Pay an indie to work for you, yes.

Also, from my perspective, the nix on the Five Hundred was the CVT. I was told by a Ford service writer that they couldn't keep up with the warranty claims for rebuilt CVTs let alone have one on the shelf.

I have a coworker who's aunt had one and loved it.

CVTs spook me. Kira


Anything I can look for to see if the CVTs going out?
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#4297671 - 01/09/17 12:25 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 9546
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: 7055
Originally Posted By: javacontour


Because everyone thinks they need an SUV...


You're saying full-size sedans in general are dying?


Pretty much.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/full-size-sedan-dead

Originally Posted By: Autoweek


Ford has sold 5 times more Explorer crossovers than Taurus sedans in 2015, and Explorer sales were up 30 percent in June.


There are other similar quotes in the article. Many full sized sedans down 20+ percent, 40+ percent, with corresponding SUV sales increases.
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#4297680 - 01/09/17 12:35 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: javacontour]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: 7055
Originally Posted By: javacontour


Because everyone thinks they need an SUV...


You're saying full-size sedans in general are dying?


Pretty much.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/full-size-sedan-dead

Originally Posted By: Autoweek


Ford has sold 5 times more Explorer crossovers than Taurus sedans in 2015, and Explorer sales were up 30 percent in June.


There are other similar quotes in the article. Many full sized sedans down 20+ percent, 40+ percent, with corresponding SUV sales increases.



Well that's an interesting read, I do agree with the consumer though that you get more utilitarian use out of a crossover SUV than a full-size sedan. They might even get better mileage too, or at least the same.

However, I also like being able to get full-size sedans for cheap.
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#4297688 - 01/09/17 12:40 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: SirTanon]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 7206
Loc: Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: 7055
And why does nobody want a Five Hundred?


The Five Hundred was just a renamed Taurus for about 4 years or so, because the new Ford CEO at the time wanted to revamp the entire naming convention.

People know what a Taurus is, because it's been around for decades. Nobody knows what the heck a Five Hundred is, even though it's essentially the same car. Consequently, it's not as popular.

Personally, I find the Five Hundred to be a very nice car. If you're interested, and they're asking $5,995 for it, then offer $4,800 and make them negotiate back up. I bet you can get into it for around $5,200.


I agree that it's a nice car. Drive my cousin's 500 for a month, last year. Even with 170,00 miles on it, it was tight and a nice ride.

But it's most definitely NOT a Taurus.

It's a Volvo S80 underneath. Common platform when Ford owned Volvo.

It's a good car. For that money, I would recommend it. But I would change all the fluids. If it's AWD, include the Haldex fluid and filter in that change.
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#4297729 - 01/09/17 01:15 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: Astro14]
69GTX Offline


Registered: 09/23/15
Posts: 2513
Loc: Connecticut
KBB and NADA are out to lunch on quality, low mileage, 1-2 owner, used cars of more than say 5-6 years old. Yes out to lunch. And as that age increases, the low mileage error really ramps up.

I'd love to have a 2005-2006 "500" with those low miles....though the CVT thing scares me.


I do a lot of reviews on cars more than say 10-15 years old. Looks at the price of V8 Camaro's, Vettes, Firebirds, GTO's back in the 1997-2006 period, they are ridiculously low, mostly because they give almost no mileage premium for a car more than around 8-10 yrs old. They fall off the map. Dealers can buy them cheap based on low guide book values. A nice deal for them. Buy a nice clean 2002 Camaro Z28 with 45K miles for $6K-$7K based on book value. What a joke. Then turn around and flip that car to the first guy through the door at $10,000. It's not that no one wants these cars, it's that insurance companies and dealers would like to have them show very small book values for their benefits.

The same reasoning works for most cars of that era. I expect the KBB "retail" or "trade-in" values for any low mileage nice car to be well below their actual dealer wholesale prices. There are so many errors in KBB pricing it's not funny. For the car's I listed above they offer no difference in pricing between automatics or 6 speed manuals. In reality, the manuals fetch $1,000 to $2,000 more as a rule. It's just wrong to give them the same value as an automatic.

Because of the lowly mileage premiums assigned by KBB and NADA, I always look for "older" cars with very low miles to take advantage of that premium. When dealers are selling they are quite aware of the desirability of such cars....and of course they ask above book, sometimes way above book. If dealers had a preference they'd want all their trade-ins to be 6 yrs old or newer, and less than 40K miles. So I'm not surprised that anything else "is not in high demand" when they are buying. Most used car buyers may be uneasy about buying a 10 year old car. To the right person, they can be incredible values.

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#4297837 - 01/09/17 03:17 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Well it just sold out from under me, anybody have recommendations on other vehicles that are as low mileage and luxurious as a Five Hundred that I could acquire for such a low price? Something to start searching for
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#4297868 - 01/09/17 03:53 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
69GTX Offline


Registered: 09/23/15
Posts: 2513
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: 7055
Well it just sold out from under me, anybody have recommendations on other vehicles that are as low mileage and luxurious as a Five Hundred that I could acquire for such a low price? Something to start searching for


Yup, good deals don't last. And while price guides tend to over-value high mileage cars, it's just the opposite for low miles.

In 8-10 year old cars, you can find some nice values in Caddys, Lincolns, Grand Marquis, etc. But, it seems to me that anything low mileage in a Toyota, Nissan, or other popular foreign based car maker is priced through the roof. Anything Pontiac, Ford, Mercury, Buick, Chevy, Dodge, and Chrysler, etc that's older would be worth looking at if low miles. I remember when I bought my 2002 Lincoln with 22K miles back in 2009 for $9K. When looking at nearly all used car lots, the cars were wrecks and priced nearly the same despite 75K-125K miles. At CarMax I couldn't touch a car like I bought for under $14K. For $10K they had cars with 4X the miles. You may have to beat the weeds or haunt the old folks homes to find something. But it could be worth it.
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2002 Lincoln Cont 4.6L 74K /QSUD 5w30/FL820s
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#4299058 - 01/10/17 07:34 PM Re: Questions about Kelly Blue Book [Re: 7055]
7055 Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 349
Loc: KS
Right now I can get an '08 Taurus Limited fully loaded, FWD with 83k on it for 4750 from a private seller with clean title. The only thing is it was in a front end collision, replaced a headlight, hood and fender. I looked at the car, couldn't find a thing wrong with it, looked pristine. I'm trying to decide if I want to go ahead with it for 4750 or pass because of the collision. I talked him down from 5,400 and left with telling him I'd have to think about it.


Edited by 7055 (01/10/17 07:42 PM)
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