Warm/Hot climate- tighten the viscosity spread?

[SteveSRT8]

There was a significant study done by Ford that showed ring wear went up as cylinder wall temp went down. In my limited recall there was ZERO mention of oil in any way as a factor. Logically there is some sort of effect from viscosity but it should be obvious that thick oil doesn't automatically kill engines.

Also, those extrapolating from the Ford data should be cautious as it was in the 60's when oils were just a bit different. With today's oils it may not mean much at all...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Truly entertaining thread, especially reading they guys from southern states preach all about startup wear. And the piece on how thick oils ruin rings was priceless

Well, hundreds of thousands of miles on each taxi with 10w-30 must have been a fluke, you know.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
There was a significant study done by Ford that showed ring wear went up as cylinder wall temp went down. In my limited recall there was ZERO mention of oil in any way as a factor. Logically there is some sort of effect from viscosity but it should be obvious that thick oil doesn't automatically kill engines.


from my experiences with Holden engines in particular, the front cylinders have the highest lip at the top of the bores. As the coolant heads to the back of the engine, it's warmer, cylinders are warmer, and here's less lip...in the area of the cylinder lubricated boundary/mixed, not the hydrodynamic area that is in the centre of the stroke.

Had one engine that I bought that had had the thermostat removed for ages, at least two owners (caught up with the original, thermostat out guy in a car park), and the bores were heavily lipped, and valve guides badly worn, to the point of visible ovality...again, boundary lubed areas.

Convinced me that control of temperatures are required for proper lubrication...and inlet control thermostats
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3305744/Re:_Inlet_side_thermostat_inst#Post3305744

See the sequence IV testing for more detail on what API and the automotive industry thinks causes wear.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: lomez
So, let's say your vehicle is spec'd for a 5W30 or 0W20......but you live and only drive in a warm climate, perhaps Miami or Los Angeles or Las Vegas. Would you bump the "cold" number up a bit? For 5W30, I'm temped to go 10W30. Reasonable?


Yes, reasonable.

 

[A_Harman]

Expanding further on my previous post:

It's definitely not the life-and-death issue some here are making it sound like. In general, 10w30's have less viscosity index improvers than 5w30's and will be less prone to permanent viscosity loss and more tolerant of high operating temperatures. Of course there are exceptions. Synthetics that use base stocks with inherently high viscosity indices will require little or no Viscosity Index Improvers and will show very little difference in shearing between 5w30 and 10w30 grades. But if you are buying cheap store-brand conventionals that use low VI base stocks and low quality VII's, 10w30 would be a better choice than 5w30.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
There was a significant study done by Ford that showed ring wear went up as cylinder wall temp went down. In my limited recall there was ZERO mention of oil in any way as a factor. Logically there is some sort of effect from viscosity but it should be obvious that thick oil doesn't automatically kill engines.

Also, those extrapolating from the Ford data should be cautious as it was in the 60's when oils were just a bit different. With today's oils it may not mean much at all...


I remember that study. It related specifically to bore wear.
From memory, the most significant thing I took away from it was the temp range where the most bore wear occurred.
They found that bore wear increased significantly if the engines were fitted with a 180 F thermostat, and coolant temps were within the normal operating range for that value thermostat.

There was a reduction in wear rates as the temps went up from there according to the value of the thermostat.
Basically I think the wear rates were better for a 192 F thermostat.
And better again for a 198 F thermostat, which was sort of typical for our engines of the day.

I think it could be a given that with the improved oils we have today, that the result would still be the same.
Maybe with a small reduction of the overall wear rates.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Truly entertaining thread, especially reading they guys from southern states preach all about startup wear. And the piece on how thick oils ruin rings was priceless

Well, hundreds of thousands of miles on each taxi with 10w-30 must have been a fluke, you know.



Quite.
Not to mention all the Diesel trucks, heavy machinery and marine engines that are running for outrageous amounts of hours and kilometers, all while copping a flogging with a 15w-40 grade oil in the sump.

I think the start up wear component, is much, much more influenced by the lower coolant temp than the oil grade.

Perhaps a study like the original Ford one would be good to have access to.
With a focus on finding out the relative bore wear rates due to different oil viscosities with a typical modern thermostat.

 

[Errtt]

Is spec for 5W30 or 0W20, I'd use 5w30 for the warm/hot climate.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducman
Not to mention all the Diesel trucks, heavy machinery and marine engines that are running for outrageous amounts of hours and kilometers, all while copping a flogging with a 15w-40 grade oil in the sump.

I think the start up wear component, is much, much more influenced by the lower coolant temp than the oil grade.

And ambient startup temperatures do make a difference. If it were -40, trying unaided, cold starts with 10w-30 twice a day might not be a good idea. In any even remotely moderate conditions, it's not a big deal. The old Audi allowed 15w-40 down to around -15 or -20 C.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Truly entertaining thread, especially reading they guys from southern states preach all about startup wear. And the piece on how thick oils ruin rings was priceless

Well, hundreds of thousands of miles on each taxi with 10w-30 must have been a fluke, you know.


I agree completely,
If you drive a taxi, a garbage oil like 10W-30 will do just fine.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Truly entertaining thread, especially reading they guys from southern states preach all about startup wear. And the piece on how thick oils ruin rings was priceless

Well, hundreds of thousands of miles on each taxi with 10w-30 must have been a fluke, you know.


I agree completely,
If you drive a taxi, a garbage oil like 10W-30 will do just fine.




More drivel.
Garak had a fleet of taxis,which combined accumulated tens of millions of miles.
That garbage oil seemed to do just fine in fleet service.
He's got data on vehicles that ran straight fuel,ethanol and propane.
Actual real world data he acquired professionally,unlike yourself who fabricates a past and present as you go along.
Got any other wisdom you'd like to share. Any real data to back up your position or are we to just take you at your word after being proven a liar and phoney.
Just wondering.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I agree completely,
If you drive a taxi, a garbage oil like 10W-30 will do just fine.

And I doubled the factory recommended OCI, even while under warranty. Do remember that some of us were maintaining vehicles before 5w-30 became commonplace. I'm one of the first guys here to recommend against 10w-30. But that's because there are more optimal choices under most conditions, and definitely in a really cold winter. But, to think that 10w-30 is some hazard is silly.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I agree completely,
If you drive a taxi, a garbage oil like 10W-30 will do just fine.

And I doubled the factory recommended OCI, even while under warranty. Do remember that some of us were maintaining vehicles before 5w-30 became commonplace. I'm one of the first guys here to recommend against 10w-30. But that's because there are more optimal choices under most conditions, and definitely in a really cold winter. But, to think that 10w-30 is some hazard is silly.


It's not silly. We're here to talk about the best oils. There is no reason to use 10W oils at all. NONE. There is nothing it can do that a 0W oil cannot. Someone running a fleet of taxis who wants to save money by getting it at 50cents a quart. Well OK.

Bottom line. People are afraid to use 0W because its a new thing.

On the other hand, fear of VIs is silly. When I bought my Buick GN they made me sign a form to use straight 30 conventional. I signed it then went home and filled it with M1 15W-50 and in retrospect I wish I had used 5W-30 instead as 15W is too thick and caused excessive cylinder wear. Could you imagine what straight 30 would have done to my engine in Colorado winter?

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
There was a significant study done by Ford that showed ring wear went up as cylinder wall temp went down. In my limited recall there was ZERO mention of oil in any way as a factor. Logically there is some sort of effect from viscosity but it should be obvious that thick oil doesn't automatically kill engines.


from my experiences with Holden engines in particular, the front cylinders have the highest lip at the top of the bores. As the coolant heads to the back of the engine, it's warmer, cylinders are warmer, and here's less lip...in the area of the cylinder lubricated boundary/mixed, not the hydrodynamic area that is in the centre of the stroke.

Had one engine that I bought that had had the thermostat removed for ages, at least two owners (caught up with the original, thermostat out guy in a car park), and the bores were heavily lipped, and valve guides badly worn, to the point of visible ovality...again, boundary lubed areas.

Convinced me that control of temperatures are required for proper lubrication...and inlet control thermostats
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3305744/Re:_Inlet_side_thermostat_inst#Post3305744

See the sequence IV testing for more detail on what API and the automotive industry thinks causes wear.


That effect is interesting. One would think that given the modes of lubrication at various parts of the bore, that additive efficacy is critical to consistent wear performance? Which Holden engine was it? Iron block I'm assuming, curious about the nickel content of it.

Also, outlet thermostats are a superior design

Originally Posted By: Clevy

I've already saved my notes on the liqui-moly so now


You know Clev, that observed reduction of bulk oil temp with the Lubro-Moly had me thinking, could it be that they use their Ceratec FM additive in it in the stock formula?

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Bottom line. People are afraid to use 0W because its a new thing.


C'mon pal, this is BITOG not the oil aisle at Wal-Mart.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It's not silly. We're here to talk about the best oils. There is no reason to use 10W oils at all. NONE. There is nothing it can do that a 0W oil cannot. Someone running a fleet of taxis who wants to save money by getting it at 50cents a quart. Well OK.

If you check my post history, I've said much the same thing for a long time here. As for the taxis, that was back in the day when 5w-30 was new and the VIIs weren't as good as they are now. 10w-30 was among the most commonly recommended grade of the day, and I don't recall ever saving money by the quart based upon grade choice. When places sell different grades (of the same tier) at different prices, I don't buy there.

But, that still doesn't mean 10w-30 is a hazard. That is silly.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Bottom line. People are afraid to use 0W because its a new thing.

It's not that new, but it is more expensive than conventional, and that's another issue. And there are reasons to use a 10w-30 in the HDEO realm, simply because not everyone wants to choose a synthetic.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
On the other hand, fear of VIs is silly. When I bought my Buick GN they made me sign a form to use straight 30 conventional. I signed it then went home and filled it with M1 15W-50 and in retrospect I wish I had used 5W-30 instead as 15W is too thick and caused excessive cylinder wear. Could you imagine what straight 30 would have done to my engine in Colorado winter?

VI and VIIs are different things. One is a dimensionless number and the other is a class of additives. As for straight grades, I don't though them. There is, however, some value in using them in the break in of a high performance, flat tappet engine, particularly if one cannot obtain a proper break in lube or a racing oil. Aside from that, I wouldn't want them, and even then, there are other options. That being said, of course an SAE 30 isn't good for a Colorado winter. Aside from a few extremes, though, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 10w-30 and a 5w-30 in the sump in Colorado winters.

And yes, fear of modern 5w-30 oils is pretty silly. But do recall there was a time when it was relevant, and there was a time when 10w-40 was warned against by GM, thanks to the VII issue.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: mene
But the person who wrote oil university is a heart surgeon not an engineer. Isn't he?


Yeah but motor oil and blood are practically the same thing.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

K. I've got a few questions,maybe you can help.
My charger at 70mph runs at an oil temp of 213f with 5w-20 oil. I've tried 2 different brands of 5w-20 and both exhibited the exact same temps.
I changed the oil to a 0w-40. Later that afternoon I went to the city and at 70mph steady cruising(35 miles commute,all highway) my oil temps would not get hotter than 190f.
Why did the 40 grade run cooler,and significantly cooler at that. I thought that thicker oils would hold more heat because it takes longer to dissipate.

Any ideas.


Your charger ran cooler with 0W-40 because it was getting better lubrication. Less friction equals less heat.

Do you actually expect 5W-20 to lubricate anything?

 

[turtlevette]

What's going to happen when the automakers start stamping the oil caps with 0W-20?

Ya'll gonna believe it then?

Oh yea, That's right. It's a goberment conspiracy.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Ducman

I think the start up wear component, is much, much more influenced by the lower coolant temp than the oil grade.

Perhaps a study like the original Ford one would be good to have access to.
With a focus on finding out the relative bore wear rates due to different oil viscosities with a typical modern thermostat.


The increased wear at low cylinder temperatures is primarily corrosive wear. At temperatures below 90C the acidic combustion products condense on the cylinder walls, increasing bore and ring wear.

Ed